Trans rights are a part of women's rights

[ASugar]

Trans people don't negatively affect women's rights. They are a part of the women's rights. Both trans men and trans women experience oppression based on being female/a woman.

@andyoldlabour

QueenCoconut

Could I ask you what your views are on male bodied people being incarcerated in women's prisons is?
Could I also ask you what you think of male bodied people competing in girl's and women's sport please?

Of course you can ask.

Prisons- I think it’s very, very difficult and there should be a third space. A new solution. There is trans person in my close circle and I can’t imagine what would happen to him if he had to be placed in a female prison. Most likely a full mental breakdown for someone who is already a very fragile person.I know he would chose to go to male prison although I can see the risks there too. I think everyone should be safe, I know it’s idealistic but I do think that. Everyone - women of course but also trans women who don’t want to be in male prisons.

Sports- very difficult , I would imagine some form of testing before competing ? I really don’t know what the solution is. I think in some cases this might disadvantage female -born contestants ( trying to avoid the word cis apologies not sure what terminology you prefer) . At the same time I wouldn’t just blanket approach this and not allow trans women to compete- it is their human right to do it. Nothing here is black or white for me. I would never want to be the person who campaigns against their right.

[quote DadJoke]@Asugar Mumsnet Women's Rights forum is a hotbed of gender critical feminists who are still waiting for the third and fourth wave of intersectional feminism to carry them towards the shore. They don't believe that gender identity is something that's been accepted and studied by the scientific and medical establishment. When someone here says "they don't have a gender identity" they don't mean they are no-binary or agender, they literally believe that it doesn't exist. Because of this, they find "cisgender" a term used in more than 30,000 uncontroversial scientific papers offensive, the offensive being that it acknowledges that gender identity is real and trans women are women, as if it makes them somehow less of a someone.

They are in the same camp as the religious right and quote articles from right wing papers disparaging transgender people. They patronise trans men by saying "you're one of us, really." When discussing the danger of trans women as a class, they rely on anecdotes, not the evidence that trans women are not a danger as a class to cis women as a class.

A huge proportion of the threads here are directed at trans women rather than the primary sources of female oppression.

The prevelance of gender critical feminists in the UK is not reflected in Ireland, the States or most of Europe. They lovingly quote Germaine Greer who once said that transwomen "‘ghastly parodies’ of women" and Bindell who said "I don't have a problem with men disposing of their genitals, but it does not make them women, in the same way that shoving a bit of vacuum hose down your 501s does not make you a man." The thing is, most of the posters here would agree with the sentiment, if not the wording of those quotes.

For an overview from an American perspective of why gender critical feminists have such a big platform here but not say in Ireland, read this article. CW: contains the T-word.[/quote]

Or it's as simple as men are men, woman are woman, and I refuse to dance to the tune of those who make up meaningless words.

It's as simple as that for me. I don't lie about anything, so I won't lie about sex and gender either.

Prisons- I think it’s very, very difficult and there should be a third space.

Just so you know, this view is often considered deeply transphobic.

However the way I see it is someone living in country can't claim it is their ethnicity, however they can become residents of that country and be recognized as a citizen.

As CrazyNeighbour pointed out in an excellent comment above, this is a poor argument. It fair annoys me too, when this is brought up as a pro-self-id argument or to support GRA reform.

I don't talk about this normally, but such assertions are deeply offensive to immigrants who cannot ever hope to gain even just permission to stay, let alone citizenship without meeting expensive, stringent conditions. I doesn't matter how I identify after living here for more than half my life. The state doesn't care one jot about that.

I applied for citizenship too recently and now await the outcome. All in, it's cost me over £2000 (and that was without lawyer's fees). I had to first meet strict conditions of another immigrant status (indefinite leave to remain). I had to sit a knowledge test most of the citizens I tried it on couldn't. I had to sit a language test where I was paired up with a woman I felt deeply sorry for because she didn't have the benefit of my education and so couldn't pass the test. I had to provide evidence showing I met certain conditions, including disclosing my employment status and tax account. Part of the qualifying period was waived on proving my marriage to a citizen, after proving my husband's citizenship of course (making it three years instead of five that I had to provide evidence on). I had to give biometric data that born citizens never have to provide. I wasn't asked if I wanted to. It's a prerequisite to gaining citizenship. If my application is successful, I am only granted citizenship on swearing an oath of allegiance that again born citizens are never required to swear. To be granted citizenship, an applicant has to meet conditions those born into it don't. No civil servant is tasked with helping us and those deciding applications are not predisposed to grant them. (Please note, I am not complaining about this, I am simply detailing what is required.)

This is in stark contrast to the current application procedure for a GRC, it simply doesn't compare. In fact, this comparison fails on so many grounds, I can only surmise those making it do so out of innocent ignorance of the facts. But ignorant it is, all the same.

I hope you'll get good news soon CrazyNeighbour and maybe we can raise a glass together then!

Perhaps this one could be renamed to gender critical feminism and another group could be used for women who want to include trans women in the ‘definition’

Sounds much like the othering of women in their own sex class. Sounds like you'd like to create a similar divide on MN too. And feminism talks about many issues that concern women.

@LezJustBeHonest

I feel like I’m in some sort of parallel universe reading this thread. One things for sure, mumsnet HQ are clearly terrified of the backlash they are receiving on Twitter judging by the amount of deletions on this thread. Many people have rightfully asked to not be called cis which has been ignored by the op repeatedly, yet op’s comments stand. Mumsnet won’t last much longer if they alienate the very people it was created for.

I think it will last , it was created for every woman. Not just the women here? There are thousands of happy users out there.

They don't believe that gender identity is something that's been accepted and studied by the scientific and medical establishment.

If it's been studied that much then how come no fecker has yet managed to coherently define the damn thing without using circular logic or referring to sexist stereotypes?

What are the characteristics of a female gender identity?
How would I go about determining what my own gender identity is?

These aren't difficult questions if it is as you suggest that gender identity is well researched and well understood.

Show me to be a fool, I dare you. Show me in a way I cannot possibly refute that my body has absolutely nothing to do with me being a woman and instead it is entirely down to the contents of my soul.

@Erkrie

Perhaps this one could be renamed to gender critical feminism and another group could be used for women who want to include trans women in the ‘definition’

Sounds much like the othering of women in their own sex class. Sounds like you'd like to create a similar divide on MN too. And feminism talks about many issues that concern women.

I don’t want to create this division, it already exists. You are a gender critical feminist I am a gender inclusive feminist ( or whatever the label is ). Aren’t we divided then ?

When someone here says "they don't have a gender identity" they don't mean they are no-binary or agender, they literally believe that it doesn't exist

Why is it, DadJoke, that women who have spent decades examining both their own lived experience and the wider context are dismissed when they say they don't have an internal gender identity, but that we are supposed to medicalise children and teenagers based on their current perception of themselves, formed in a sexist and homophobic society, and which may have been held for a very brief period indeed?

It's almost as if women's expertise doesn't matter.

Dadjoke, you have never explained why gender identity should matter more than sex.

I am totally happy to accept that trans women have a woman gender identity. (And that I am agender if that’s the box you want to put me in).
Why though should that mean they use female spaces? The point is that they are single sex spaces rather than single gender spaces.

"cisgender" a term used in more than 30,000 uncontroversial scientific papers

Source(s) please? After all, if we take the time to cite our evidence, surely you could return the favour so the scientifically literate amongst us can go and read these "uncontroversial" papers.

They are in the same camp as the religious right.

I'm an atheist and former member of the Labour Party but keep telling everyone that we're extremely right-wing

And just to make the point further, trans people wouldn't be sat screaming about the issue just as much as women wouldn't be, if the law had been properly written in the first place.

The argument is because the law is written poorly. The ideology is built on sand foundations.

The law exists on the basis of public consensus. If the law is felt to be unjust then the public will respond accordingly. In what is called a 'backlash'.

This is happening in the UK and it will happen in time eslewhere for similar reasons. It may take longer in some places than others, but the point about definitions and injustice will remain and won't go away unless the conflict is recognised and dealt with adequately.

But you aren't inclusive, QueenCoconut. Your desired state of the world actively excludes many women and girls from participating in public life.

I don't agree. Transwoman have their own different issues to deal with that don't come from being born a XX female.

You are a gender critical feminist I am a gender inclusive feminist ( or whatever the label is )

I'd prefer that you didn't label me as anything.
Thanks.

@RowanMumsnet I didn't see any announcement of pronouns before any of the deletions. That said is very easy to miss a post as MN must have hundreds of thousands of posts per day. Are we to do an advanced search and read all previous posts in case is a pronoun announcement is within?

No one here has ever asked mine. We are anonymous with no photos and can't see each other in real life. Unless someone is famous with pronoun announcement that made headlines, how can anyone even try to guess what pronouns she or he may prefer? We can't say 100% the sex of anyone here, we just make educated guesses dependent on their output.

Does this getting deleted for using a pronoun that a PP later reports they find offensive extend to any other board or words like xe and xim?
I hope you aren't suggesting that we add them to every post like netmums tickers.
Think I'll take this over to site stuff instead of derailing .
To be honest I can't even tell if an detailing as while thread is Swiss cheese 🙂

They are in the same camp as the religious right and quote articles from right wing papers disparaging transgender people. They patronise trans men by saying "you're one of us, really." When discussing the danger of trans women as a class, they rely on anecdotes, not the evidence that trans women are not a danger as a class to cis women as a class.

'Never mind logic, reason or what you know to be true - The Baddies also believe that. You don't want to be one of The Baddies, do you?'

Seen it done SO many times before, and if I may say so, done far better.

Or maybe the discussion can get back to Trans people don't negatively affect women's rights.

What do you think coconut, do you have a view on this? Can you tell us how you think we can address the obvious conflicts that we have asked the OP to address?

As an example now it is me versus I don’t even know how many of you- you are ready to keep going and challenge my posts until we run out of space I guess?

I think that's a reasonable expectation on a discussion board when there are differing views, yes.

Mumsnet Women's Rights forum is a hotbed of gender critical feminists who are still waiting for the third and fourth wave of intersectional feminism to carry them towards the shore.

Eh? Absolutely no idea what that means.

@Impatiens

Mumsnet Women's Rights forum is a hotbed of gender critical feminists who are still waiting for the third and fourth wave of intersectional feminism to carry them towards the shore.

Eh? Absolutely no idea what that means.

Word salad.

Mumsnet Women's Rights forum is a hotbed of gender critical feminists who are still waiting for the third and fourth wave of intersectional feminism to carry them towards the shore.

And strangely, not every poster on this board describes themselves as a feminist. generalisation much?

Why is it, DadJoke, that women who have spent decades examining both their own lived experience and the wider context are dismissed when they say they don't have an internal gender identity, but that we are supposed to medicalise children and teenagers based on their current perception of themselves, formed in a sexist and homophobic society, and which may have been held for a very brief period indeed?

It's almost as if women's expertise doesn't matter.

Very good question.