Trans rights don't effect women's rights.

[ASugar]

There is so much misinformation on this website and at places such as 'Fair Play For Women' that claims transgender rights effect women's rights. It is incorrect.

Firstly, nothing has proven that transgender women have the same crime rate as biological, cis men. It isn't biological and actually continuing this false narrative is allowing cis men to not take responsibility.

Secondly, Trans women and men pose no additional threat in prisons linked with their sex. They have been assaulted and abused to the same degree that they may have acted on which is why transgender wards are being put into place. However the issue isn't the fact TW or TM are in prisons assosiated with their gender, our prison systems aren't safe for anyone. That's what we should be concerned about and advocating for change within.

Thirdly, the bathroom debate. Transgender women have shown to pose no higher threat in single sex spaces than cisgender women. Meaning that denying their rights to use public bathrooms is unjustified. This actually is all recycled arguments from when lesbians and women of color wanted to use single sex spaces and wanted protection by the equality act for it.

And lastly, please stop believing everything you read online. A lot of the material made by the gender critical community is false. It is fabricated to scare you into believing them. Please take some time to do some research, speak to transgender people and learn that trans rights are not a debate.

@ASugar

Well done everyone!

You passed the test. I wanted to confirm this was a transphobic platform and you've all done that. In less than 30 minutes might I add!

This thread and comments will be collected and used to prove to MumsNet that the transphobia on this website is unsettling and wrong. Thanks ladies.

Oh no, our evil feminist empire is about to collapse, and it's all thanks to you and your incisive intellect.

@DisappearingGirl

Can people please stop picking on the OP's spelling and grammar? It's perfectly clear what they mean.

I generally agree with the principles of the posters on this board, but why not engage with people's questions and points in good faith. You can disagree with someone without being an arse to them.

The OP starts a thread specifically to harvest so-called transphobia and you say posters responding are posting “in bad faith”?

Priceless.

@BlackWaveComing Good thing she's no longer my mum anymore.

By saying that trans women are somehow less, you are basically doing the same thing. You are attempting to justify exclusion because you have an irrational fear of something that you do not understand.

What a funny thing to say. No one is saying that trans women are "somehow less". We are saying that they are male. Which, in today's society as in every other, we are well aware counts for being more than a woman, something which we can see being borne out in the fact that every organisation and institution from universities to prisons has bent over to prioritise their demands, obliterating women's rights to not have to share a bedroom in university halls or a prison cell with a male.

[quote ASugar]@BlackWaveComing Good thing she's no longer my mum anymore.[/quote]
Has she transitioned?

Oh and my boobs also get in the way of my pull, affecting my stance.

Males never have that problem funnily enough.

Soreen, warmed, with a little salted butter.

I teach all young people that their sexuality is there's [sic] and it doesn't come with rules. Well that's all right then.

That yes a trans woman can be a lesbian In what specific ways can a transwoman (born a male bodied person) be a lesbian?

@nancywhitehead

*Firstly, there are plenty of lesbians and women of colour on this board, so kindly don't co-opt our struggles against us.

Secondly, gay people and people of colour have never claimed their civil rights by demanding that other vulnerable groups give up rights that they have fought for and that are protected in law. Nor have they demanded that people deny material evidence and say things that they know not to be true.*

OK well "Firstly" you don't know whether or not I fall into either of those categories myself.

Secondly, the point I was making was that people in the past have banned certain groups from hotels, bathrooms and other public spaces, out of fear, discrimination, thoughts that people were dirty, wrong, violent, or whatever other disgusting beliefs they felt could justify those actions.

You could make this exact argument against a person of colour by saying that a person of colour once was violent to someone or once attacked someone. Trans people are a section of society and within that there will be trans people who are criminals, just like there would be if you drew from any other section of society. It will be an extremely small percentage and people get completely fixated on it. Due to their lack of understanding and fear, they then use it as a way to be exclusionary. This exact thing happened in the past with people of colour and gay people who were deemed to be violent and dangerous.

Yeah, I’d appreciate it if you Trans rights activists would keep people of colour out of your argument. Defend your point of view by all means, however stop piggy-backing off other people’s genuine struggles. It’s just lazy and so offensive. Yours, a Black woman.

The attitudes, fear and discrimination that I see on this board towards trans people are comparible to previous attitudes, fear and discrimination that people had towards black people and gay people. The groups are different and the specific arguments are different, but the basic attitudes are the same.

Not really. You're making the argument that there should be no segregation by sex at all - ie, all changing rooms, toilets, prisons and hospital wards should be mixed sex. Do you support that?

If not, and you believe that trans people should be an exception, please could you explain what characteristics are shared by all women and transwomen that are not shared by any men or transmen that would warrant separation on the basis of gender identity rather than sex?

What about sport?
There’s a reason women and men have different categories.
I played against a trans woman in rugby and she destroyed the competition. She went from playing in the men’s team one week, and then joining the very amateur women’s team the next
Physiological advantages she was born with meant it just wasn’t a fair playing field.
As a woman do I just need to shut up?

You've only proved you're young and brainwashed. The thread will go anyway and you have no proof of anything

Actually I think it should stand. Mega cringe worthy this is.

ASugar
@BlackWaveComing Good thing she's no longer my mum anymore.

Has she transitioned?

@ASugar

Well done everyone!

You passed the test. I wanted to confirm this was a transphobic platform and you've all done that. In less than 30 minutes might I add!

This thread and comments will be collected and used to prove to MumsNet that the transphobia on this website is unsettling and wrong. Thanks ladies.

😂😂😂😂😂

Prove to who, exactly?

[quote ASugar]@EnoughnowIthink I don't believe any rapist, sexual assault predator or murderer should be near others in prisons.[/quote]
That's not really how prisons work, though, is it?

If there is no one with a penis in a women's prison, no women will be raped. If there are people with penises, women are at risk of rape, as happened with Karen White.

Few actually cared that much about self-ID (in the UK, most areas are self-ID already thanks to the EA2010)

No. The EA is quite clear about about single sex exemptions and the protected characteristic is gender reassignment not self identification. It's Stonewall you need to be thanking for their dedication to misrepresenting the law.

The attached screenshot from the 2nd March makes this clear.

By saying that trans women are somehow less, you are basically doing the same thing. You are attempting to justify exclusion because you have an irrational fear of something that you do not understand

I’m not saying transwomen are “less” at all. But transwomen are born male, are they not, or there would be nothing to transition from, right? And in some places and for some reasons, it is important to acknowledge that transwomen and women have different needs.

Interesting that transmen, who are certainly included in the class of people that I think benefit from rights and protections that female bodied people need, don’t get a mention in your argument....

@ASugar

Well done everyone!

You passed the test. I wanted to confirm this was a transphobic platform and you've all done that. In less than 30 minutes might I add!

This thread and comments will be collected and used to prove to MumsNet that the transphobia on this website is unsettling and wrong. Thanks ladies.

So, not posting in good faith, in the spirit of open debate. I think the thread is therefore likely to be deleted because the OP has broken general talk guidelines and so not worth expending effort on.

I don't know about 'effect' but they definitely do 'affect' it. On a theoretical level for me it could be seen as the final and ultimate level in the video game of misogyny.

You could make this exact argument against a person of colour by saying that a person of colour once was violent to someone or once attacked someone. Trans people are a section of society and within that there will be trans people who are criminals, just like there would be if you drew from any other section of society. It will be an extremely small percentage and people get completely fixated on it. Due to their lack of understanding and fear, they then use it as a way to be exclusionary. This exact thing happened in the past with people of colour and gay people who were deemed to be violent and dangerous.

We make that argument against males. We live in a society which acknowledges that some males are violent and operates certain safeguards to protect women from that male-pattern violence. Transwomen are male.

@wellthatsunusual

Transgender women also deserve that privacy and dignity. That's why we have cubicals as well.

Indeed they do. Which is why I would support their campaign for a separate space for transgender women. Can you point me towards the campaign as I assume there must be one since privacy is important?

Not in communal changing rooms they don't. This is very common in gyms such as Virgin Active or Fitness First. No cubicles.

Plenty of threads on this subject if you care to look.

[quote ASugar]@BlackWaveComing Good thing she's no longer my mum anymore.[/quote]
Is that what you really want to talk about? There are other boards for support if you wanted to.

[quote ASugar]@EnoughnowIthink I don't believe any rapist, sexual assault predator or murderer should be near others in prisons.[/quote]
Should they all be in single cells 24/7?

Sorry, well, that was more directed at the poster you were quoting rather than you!

Prove to who, exactly?

“Prove to MumsNet” apparently.

I think I’ve found the flaw in the OP’s master plan

@FamilyOfAliens @wellthatsunusual
No. Just disowned her many years ago. She legally isn't recognized as my mum.