Trans rights don't effect women's rights.

[ASugar]

There is so much misinformation on this website and at places such as 'Fair Play For Women' that claims transgender rights effect women's rights. It is incorrect.

Firstly, nothing has proven that transgender women have the same crime rate as biological, cis men. It isn't biological and actually continuing this false narrative is allowing cis men to not take responsibility.

Secondly, Trans women and men pose no additional threat in prisons linked with their sex. They have been assaulted and abused to the same degree that they may have acted on which is why transgender wards are being put into place. However the issue isn't the fact TW or TM are in prisons assosiated with their gender, our prison systems aren't safe for anyone. That's what we should be concerned about and advocating for change within.

Thirdly, the bathroom debate. Transgender women have shown to pose no higher threat in single sex spaces than cisgender women. Meaning that denying their rights to use public bathrooms is unjustified. This actually is all recycled arguments from when lesbians and women of color wanted to use single sex spaces and wanted protection by the equality act for it.

And lastly, please stop believing everything you read online. A lot of the material made by the gender critical community is false. It is fabricated to scare you into believing them. Please take some time to do some research, speak to transgender people and learn that trans rights are not a debate.

@ASugar

Well done everyone!

You passed the test. I wanted to confirm this was a transphobic platform and you've all done that. In less than 30 minutes might I add!

This thread and comments will be collected and used to prove to MumsNet that the transphobia on this website is unsettling and wrong. Thanks ladies.

Ooh, a test! I love a test.

I have a test question for you as well.

If transwomen are really women, why does society listen to them and concede to their demands? Why are they not told to back off and be kind? Why do people not pretend not to hear what they're saying?

Humans don't change sex. Sexual orientation is based on sex. So, no, males who identify as women are not lesbians if their sexual orientation is for the opposite sex.

nancywhitehead Transwomen aren't banned from toilets.

However, males are encouraged not to use women's toilets, and transwomen are male.

In the UK, access to toilets isn't one of the major issues feminists are concerned about. The focus here is on on refuges, prisons, sports, women-only short lists, the right of women to refuse intimate exams or searches from a male person, and so on. The key to it is that in some cases we need to acknowledge reality, and the reality is that transwomen are male.

Actually I can blame her because I was abused and was made to care for my siblings so I couldn't attend school as often.

That seems a very specific and personal thing to mention in this context. There are quite a few threads on here with good support in that area. Search for 'we went to stately homes' for a starting point.

If you really do want to discuss women's rights to single sex spaces why not try what I suggested earlier? Use my questions at 7.55 as a jumping off point.

You are not achieving anything by being confrontational. It can't feel good to be on the defensive like this so why not try an actual conversation?

Sex segregation and race segregation aren’t at all comparable, nancy.

Race segregation: the dominant class (white) excluded the subordinated class (Black) from facilities due to their being perceived as lesser humans.

Sex segregation: the dominant class (men) are excluded from spaces that the subordinated class (women) need for reasons of dignity and safety, and to be able to access public life.

They’re not remotely the same. If your premise is that women don’t ever need sex segregation in sport, prisons, refuges etc, then please do make that case.

@Biscuitsanddoombar

No one is banned from anywhere, simply when it’s appropriate such as in prisons, refuges, changing rooms & public toilets to be in the space that accords to their birth sex

And they call us hysterical....

Trans people aren't banned from facilities that correspond to their gender identity, though.

In fact there are protections in place in the Equality Act which ensure that they have the right to use whichever restroom they like.

Those protectons are there for a reason.

You have been sharing these spaces with trans people for years, probably without even realising it or without ever being attacked by an unhinged transwoman.

Just once, I'd like to see them address the bottom line here. Sexual dimorphism in mammals. Why can't they accept that we won't bend our minds out of shape to accommodate at bizarre obsession with changing sex?

In the UK there was no official segregation by race. There weren't public facilities or schools that were for people of one colour or another. There weren't separate drinking fountains. In the 1940s my white father went to school with a couple of black children (and this was in a part of the country which is still overwhelmingly white).

I do get irritated when people take a situation that happened in a specific part of the US (and there wasn't even segregation across the entire country there either) and South Africa and imply that it happened in the UK.

Furthermore, even when there was segregation in other countries, toilets and changing rooms were still separated by sex - ie black women did not share changing rooms with black men.

I am tired of 'analogies' that are nothing of the sort.

You have been sharing these spaces with trans people for years, probably without even realising it or without ever being attacked by an unhinged transwoman

This simply isn’t true. Refuges, prisons, sports, girls schools, guides etc have not always admitted transwomen.

It’s interesting to note that the conversation always gets dragged back to “restrooms”, which don’t exist in the Uk, for a start, and which can quite easily be changed to facilities for men, ones for women, and mixed sex for those who don’t mind.

@pitterpatterrain

Do you really believe this?

Given that decent data in jails seems lacking I am curious the basis. Also “no additional risk due to sex” - well, rape would be an additional risk no?

Do you have any evidence for your assertions beyond “talk to someone then realise it’s no debate”?

She's pretty much right on. The only real area of conflict is in sports - where there should be research into every type of sport to ascertain whether trans women get an advantage over cisgender women as, say, archery is not going to be affected as much as, say, a 100m sprint. Obviously trans men should be able to participate.

As AS says, the only real evidence in terms of crime is that trans women are less of a risk:

www.transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm

However, I don't think many trans people would care one bit if there were more protections in women's prisons against trans offenders who offend against women e.g. sticking them into some trans unit...and I'm pretty sure that 99% of trans ppl would argue that prison authorities should do a better job of assessments. Just as Karen White should never have been in a women's prison (they weren't even transitioning at the time), Tara Hudson (an actual mostly transitioned trans woman) should never have been getting sexually assaulted in a men's prison.

Most of the rest of the stuff is already covered - worried about trans women in women's spaces? Well they've been using the most appropriate spaces for all your lives and if a particular organisation is concerned, they're within their rights to exclude trans people from spaces under the exemptions within the EA2010. It's incredibly rare that they do, because like everyone else, 99% of trans people just wanna pee or get changed without hassle.

You'll note that I used 'appropriate' - this is because it's always been left in the hands of trans people to make those decisions. For instance, I'm a trans person who is hidden..so I'm medically transitioning, but it will be quite a while before I socially transition..for me to go into the women's would be ridiculous, but equally for someone like Katy Montgomerie to go into the men's would be equally as ridiculous.

Does any of this sound crazy? Yet I'm one of those scary 'TRAs'

A lot of the problems are due to misinformation and because the trans community is very laissez faire (we have to be).

In all honesty, we didn't want the visibility, but it was foisted on us. Few actually cared that much about self-ID (in the UK, most areas are self-ID already thanks to the EA2010), but we got years of hideousness because of it. What we do actually care about is discrimination (which despite legislation, is bad), not having to wait 3+ years for healthcare (pre-pandemic, god knows how bad it is now), about the increase in hate crimes and about going for a god damn pee in peace.

Anyway, not sure this message will get past the mods, so I should quit.

“And lastly, please stop believing everything you read online”

Good point. I’ll go and do some research to see if the things you have said are actually true rather than taking your word for it.

@ASugar

Well done everyone!

You passed the test. I wanted to confirm this was a transphobic platform and you've all done that. In less than 30 minutes might I add!

This thread and comments will be collected and used to prove to MumsNet that the transphobia on this website is unsettling and wrong. Thanks ladies.

Welcome to Mumsnet, OP.

@donquixotedelamancha

And to those making comments on my grammar and spelling, you can blame my mum for that one

Why your mum? There is still plenty of time to address this, speak to your English teacher when you go back next week.

In fact there are protections in place in the Equality Act which ensure that they have the right to use whichever restroom they like.

The EA2010 specifically allows for certain sex-based exemptions. Please stop misrepresenting the law.

Can people please stop picking on the OP's spelling and grammar? It's perfectly clear what they mean.

I generally agree with the principles of the posters on this board, but why not engage with people's questions and points in good faith. You can disagree with someone without being an arse to them.

OP - let's say a TW is a convicted rapist. Do you think a woman should be sharing a cell with her? Would you be happy with that yourself?

@Sophoclesthefox

Sex segregation and race segregation aren’t at all comparable, nancy.

Race segregation: the dominant class (white) excluded the subordinated class (Black) from facilities due to their being perceived as lesser humans.

Sex segregation: the dominant class (men) are excluded from spaces that the subordinated class (women) need for reasons of dignity and safety, and to be able to access public life.

They’re not remotely the same. If your premise is that women don’t ever need sex segregation in sport, prisons, refuges etc, then please do make that case.

The attitudes, fear and discrimination that I see on this board towards trans people are comparible to previous attitudes, fear and discrimination that people had towards black people and gay people. The groups are different and the specific arguments are different, but the basic attitudes are the same.

People used to think that black people were dangerous. People used to think that they had to be segragated for white people's safety, and they justified it by saying that they were in some way lesser human beings, and there were even studies that posited that black people were somehow closer to neanderthal man and less developed, even that they didn't feel or think in the same way as other people.

By saying that trans women are somehow less, you are basically doing the same thing. You are attempting to justify exclusion because you have an irrational fear of something that you do not understand.

Imagine blaming your mum for your inability to spell. What utter nonsense you spout. Grow up. Go away and learn how to present a good-faith, evidenced and logical argument supporting your assertions.

A lot of the problems are due to misinformation and because the trans community is very laissez faire (we have to be).

That's one of the most hilarious things I've ever read. The only trans community are the loudest, most privileged group in western society these days. They have had laws bent to their will inside about ten years. In comparison it took women hundreds of years to get even the most basic legal protections. Also less likely to be a victim of crime than women.

But yeah, the trans community are so quiet and unassuming that people barely know they exist.

As always back to the toilets, it’s so deeply deeply tedious 🙄 arguing that men should be in women’s prisons or refuges or playing sport against women or taking up women’s places on sports teams is so much harder isn’t it?

And nope we’ve always known when a TW was in our spaces but funnily enough as women learn very early on that men have the capacity to cause us great harm, we let it go because in the past we were talking about old school transsexuals of the kind TRA hate so much. Also because actually ppl are not generally cunts, we weren’t going to point and go “you’re a bloke”.

But we’re not talking about them now are we, we’re talking about any man who just feels like it being able to walk in on the basis after all acceptance without exception right?

Tara Hudson (an actual mostly transitioned trans woman) should never have been getting sexually assaulted in a men's prison

I agree that mtf transitioners should not be assaulted in a men's prison. That doesn't mean they belong in a women's prison.

Women's spaces are not to be used as a safe harbour for anyone who might be at risk in a male space - other solutions are available.

@DisappearingGirl

Can people please stop picking on the OP's spelling and grammar? It's perfectly clear what they mean.

I generally agree with the principles of the posters on this board, but why not engage with people's questions and points in good faith. You can disagree with someone without being an arse to them.

The poster isn't in good faith. That's 100% clear. We don't owe them a good faith response.

@EnoughnowIthink I don't believe any rapist, sexual assault predator or murderer should be near others in prisons.

nancywhitehead The argument is that transwomen are as potentially dangerous as other males. Feminism does tend to recognise that males are sometimes a threat to women.

archery is not going to be affected as much

Wrong.

I use a 32lb recurve. I can pull a little more but not easily or comfortably.

Novice males can already pull that and more.

Experienced males have bows that I cannot even pull.