Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

[Nightinghawk]

I’m coming over from Twitter since @/MumsnetTowers has encouraged people to join, promising that they would not ban people for using the word “cis” and also that they think “Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic” is “an interesting question and a debate [they’d] welcome seeing on the boards.” When asked if they believe that trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are nonbinary, they responded with “We believe adults have a right to say what they think about matters of active public debate.” However, they do say they do not tolerate hate speech, malicious content, sweeping negative generalizations, derogatory or aggressive content on their site.

Given the conflicting messages I’ve seen from them in the past, and the fact that they to this day think campaigns against trans people’s rights could in any way not be transphobic and their hesitance to affirm trans people’s autonomy in our self-description and our gender(s), I’m hesitant to believe that Mumsnet the site is actually trans friendly. I mean this as no disrespect to the mod team or others in position of authority; it is merely my opinion (and lived experiences) that any online forum that doesn’t immediately consider campaigns against trans people’s rights as transphobic tend to have (accidentally or otherwise) cultivated a transphobic customer base on their forums. I say this as a trans person who has been leveled all kinds of harassment in a variety of online forums, where those which had not condemned transphobia had immensely more transphobia in quantity and in vitriol.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

It was like that poster that had us going for threads earlier this year. It is always about centring the male child

And on this thread.

There needn't be a problem of competing needs if provision and protection for each vulnerable group is and is assessed and made separately.

My DC had individual funding. When my D.C. ceased to need this funding for themselves their school used the resource for other children. However, this meant my DC always had to work closely alongside them so it looked like my D.C. was still receiving provision. These children each had different and conflicting needs. It didn't work. My D.C. felt demoralised, their true educational needs were unprovided for. Funding can't be conflated.

The problem isn't 'sleeping in the next tent', the problem is expecting to sleep in the 'same tent' as the girls.

Exactly what I was thinking about just now. There are very good reasons why male and female teens don’t share sleeping spaces at sleepovers and on school residentials. It’s basic safeguarding, why should we be expected to suddenly ignore it for the sake of one person’s feelings?

Being kind and accommodating so as not to hurt someone’s feelings is a massive red flag in safeguarding terms.

It is always about centring the male child

Not always. My D.C. is male. I had to fight to get additional funding he didn't need ceased. Until it was ceased his true achievements were never acknowledged. I think there are sometimes some differences between male and female children as a class. It is most often male children who are picked up as having additional needs. Parents then get sold a narrative that this is for life. When it might not have to be.

Male children often have be taught to fit in. They don't always like it and it can seem to take an age sometimes. But it is possible.

Please note Eteri that I am not saying that your child is or was a risk to anyone’s safety.

I’m saying that telling our children to squash feelings of discomfort or fear so that they don’t upset someone is the opposite of good safeguarding.

I’m saying that telling our children to squash feelings of discomfort or fear so that they don’t upset someone is the opposite of good safeguarding.

I think this is exactly what we have to tell them but in moderation. The child who doesn't want to fit in with rules because they don't like the rules feels discomfort that they can't do whatever they want, what interests them. We have to be clear about telling people what upsets but also that not everything in life is enjoyable.

I’m saying that telling our children to squash feelings of discomfort or fear so that they don’t upset someone is the opposite of good safeguarding.

Agree, and while as a parent you might feel that your only job is to advocate for your child, at a policy level a school must obviously take into account different and often competing needs.

I'm just coming back to a point by the op about focusing on xx, women's biology etc as = Women and that this is therefore a reductionist way of looking at being a woman.

The only reason feminists do this is because they centre women and girls.

They centre women and girls only because laws and structural oppression has historically and currently does make life harder for women and girls. Simply because of their xx biology.

We don't want to 'harp' on about this. But I'm yet to meet a woman who's had children and is peri or menopausal who hasn't found some sort of unfairness or unequal-ness in their life simply due to biology. And those effects impact trans men too.

Laws have been fought for and created to safeguard women. The still need work. And therefore the the distinction matters.

The irony is that inclusive language for women's health care is intent on reducing women to their body parts.

Agree, and while as a parent you might feel that your only job is to advocate for your child, at a policy level a school must obviously take into account different and often competing needs.

I think we perhaps need to help children separate their needs from their wants. Plus acknowledge a want can quite often feel like a need to them!.

I'm just coming back to a point by the op about focusing on xx, women's biology etc as = Women and that this is therefore a reductionist way of looking at being a woman.

I think people who say this haven't thought too deeply about the frameworks people need to enable equality.

There is always a balance that needs to be struck between being treated the same and treated differently, and that balance always requires negotiation as situations change.

When it comes to schools, I think its very important the child feels safe and comfortable.

I am a hard nope on a male child using fenmale spaces, but I also would never want them forced to use male spaces.

As so many have said, additional unisex spaces are the only real answer, its just a solution that some transpeople do not want as while it provides spaces, it does not give validation.

And I would have thought that someone who is transgender will have some different and conflicting needs compared to biologically female women. To cater to both sets of needs you need separate provision, this makes sense for both groups.

it does not give validation

But we cannot provide validation for something which is a personal internal conflict between body and mind. Validation for that is self determined.

@TooManyMiles

“Eteri your male chikd had male spaces they could use.”

If I have understood correctly Eteri’s child is a trans girl. As such she might be in danger in a male space (unfortunately).

She might, however, be felt as a threat, or liable to cause an embarrassment
In the girls’ changing rooms.

In my opinion, for this reason, alternative, third, safe spaces should be included somehow.

I haven't yet seen anyone provide evidence that a transwoman may be in any more danger in a male space than any other vulnerable male group such as teenagers etc - has anyone come across any yet?

agree re. third spaces Toomanymiles

I cannot and will not sacrifice my child's safety and happiness on the alter of an ideology. It's not an option in my mind, it's not something that has ever been up for debate,

You see any concern for the girls in the school as an 'ideology'? And I don't

Blast. Ignore that 'And I don't' bit.

I cannot and will not sacrifice my child's safety and happiness on the alter of an ideology. It's not an option in my mind, it's not something that has ever been up for debate.

But I’m expected to?

I cannot and will not sacrifice my child's safety and happiness on the alter of an ideology. It's not an option in my mind, it's not something that has ever been up for debate,

I can't comment on individual cases but if you are talking about changing/making new laws for the whole of society, ideologies do matter, ideologies affect the whole of society so should be concerned with encompassing the majority of needs.

The protections and provisions for biological females in law have been fought for, with good reason and won. Is there any less need for them now? Well, there are still as many biological females with needs relating to their biology so, no. Are there other groups with needs? Most certainly, yes but catering for them that doesn't necessitate removal of provision and protections or biological females.

For

Provision of single sex spaces is an ‘ideology’? Bollocks is it. It’s a hard-won right with a strong evidence base.

@waterlego

Provision of single sex spaces is an ‘ideology’? Bollocks is it. It’s a hard-won right with a strong evidence base.

Absolutely.

I haven’t read the thread but I would fear for a trans girl using the men’s toilets 😨

Can we just recap so I really understand what is going on? 😣 sorry.

We have a child with a penis?

The child with a penis “know” that they are a girl?

Therefore this child wants to use the changing rooms and the loos with other girls during puberty?

When most girls are horrified by their periods and embarrassed by their changing bodies?

Please tell me that I have got this wrong?