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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

790 replies

Nightinghawk · 03/03/2021 15:22

I’m coming over from Twitter since @/MumsnetTowers has encouraged people to join, promising that they would not ban people for using the word “cis” and also that they think “Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic” is “an interesting question and a debate [they’d] welcome seeing on the boards.” When asked if they believe that trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are nonbinary, they responded with “We believe adults have a right to say what they think about matters of active public debate.” However, they do say they do not tolerate hate speech, malicious content, sweeping negative generalizations, derogatory or aggressive content on their site.

Given the conflicting messages I’ve seen from them in the past, and the fact that they to this day think campaigns against trans people’s rights could in any way not be transphobic and their hesitance to affirm trans people’s autonomy in our self-description and our gender(s), I’m hesitant to believe that Mumsnet the site is actually trans friendly. I mean this as no disrespect to the mod team or others in position of authority; it is merely my opinion (and lived experiences) that any online forum that doesn’t immediately consider campaigns against trans people’s rights as transphobic tend to have (accidentally or otherwise) cultivated a transphobic customer base on their forums. I say this as a trans person who has been leveled all kinds of harassment in a variety of online forums, where those which had not condemned transphobia had immensely more transphobia in quantity and in vitriol.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

OP posts:
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AnotherEmma · 04/03/2021 19:46

PS Sorry I forgot to add that I would also be interested in your thoughts on replacing "breastfeeding" with "chestfeeding"... I don't know whether you would consider having a baby and breastfeeding, but if you did, do you think you would be offended or triggered by calling it that, and would you prefer "chestfeeding"?

unwashedanddazed · 04/03/2021 19:46

kaineus Thank you for that heavy dose of rationality!

AnotherEmma · 04/03/2021 19:47

Sorry that last post was to kaineus

UtilityLayout · 04/03/2021 19:48

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

Thanks Ova for that recommendation. They donate £1 from every order to food banks for every mask sold too. Grin
I believe all their manufacturing is U.K. too.
WeeBisom · 04/03/2021 19:53

@Nightinghawk:

"I have to argue on the concept of feminism only for "biological women," since I feel that creates exclusion and, depending on the definitions or views loaded in the term, would exclude people who have lived as women their entire life."

Why is exclusion a bad thing, though? Take Black Lives Matter - it is particularly focused on the oppression of black people. It is a civil rights movement that is exclusionary to white people (hence the dismissal of 'all lives matter'.) Any attempt to widen the bandwidth of the movement to encompass white people and white concerns is rightly rejected. So why must feminism include everyone? Why do women not get their own civil rights movement? I could live as any number of things my entire life and that doesn't actually make me that thing (as Rachel Dolezal, or Hilaria Baldwin recently discovered.)

"I've seen a lot of GC people say that "biological" relates to body parts, reproductive organs, chromosomes, facial features, and I personally find that incredibly reductive for the concept of women."

In philosophy, 'reduction' is when a concept is nothing more than x. It is entirely explicable in relation to x. So, for instance, water is nothing more than H20. Once you grasp the properties and nature of H20 you have learned everything relevant about the concept of water. When we say that women are female, and female is a biological concept, we aren't reducing women to just their biology. Women are not 'nothing more' than their biological sex, because they are also people.

To paraphrase Jane Claire Jones, here, saying a woman is biologically female is NOT the same thing as saying her entire essence or existence is nothing but her femaleness. She is a person and a human being. Jones theorises that we still find it difficult to believe that females are fully human being, which is why some people think there is some kind of contradiction in saying that people can also be female. I would also ask at this point, what a 'non reductive' definition of the concept of woman looks like.

"Relating feminism to strict biological categories but also against the oppression of female reproduction seems somewhat counterintuitive to me (though there is truth in women being oppressed due to biological differences), since it appears (in my understanding of it) to relegate women to mere bodily functions rather than expand women beyond the patriarchal expectations constructed around those bodily functions."

I don't see how it is counterintuitive to be against the oppression of female reproduction while also saying that women are biological females. Women's female sex explains their oppression. Their sex is why they are oppressed. Feminism aims to liberate the female sex from oppression. The ultimate aim is to have no female human being oppressed on the basis of their sex.

Saying the definition of woman is an adult human female does not relegate woman to mere bodily functions. That is quite a sexist way of thinking, to be honest. Women are people, full human beings, who also happen to be female. This is like saying that disabled people are nothing more than their disability!

I would also note that if you expand the concept of woman so that it is wide enough to also encompass women's oppressors, men, then something surely has gone wrong.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 04/03/2021 19:58

Hi kaineus. Welcome and thank you for joining this discussion, I hope you stick around.

Clymene · 04/03/2021 20:00

Thanks @kaineus. Your post makes complete sense to me

Flamingolingo · 04/03/2021 20:01

@kaineus, absolutely! There will never be any kind of resolution for this topic if we keep stifling debate and discussion. Labelling people (women) as being hateful for asking to discuss what the definition of ‘woman’ actually is isn’t helpful or appropriate.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 04/03/2021 20:02

Hi utility! Yes I read that. A family business too. It's lovely what gems you discover on MN Wink

kaineus · 04/03/2021 20:11

[quote AnotherEmma]@kaineus
Welcome to Mumsnet and thank you for your post which was very refreshing to read. I don't find it hypocritical at all.
Please feel free not to answer if you'd prefer not to discuss it on this thread (or at all), but I would be very interested to know what you think about the current trend of erasing the word "woman" from communications about medical services for biological females. As a trans man, how do you feel about services that you might need (relating to menstruation, cervical screening, contraception, abortion, pregnancy, childbirth etc) referring to "women", do you find this offensive or triggering or are you comfortable with it? Do you think it's ok for the word "woman" to be erased and replaced with "person" when it comes to female biological functions?

I have very strong feelings on this subject and I've tried to ask as neutrally as possible, but I have a theory that this trend has not come about as a result of accommodating the wishes of trans men (or non-binary people who were born female), and I would be very interested to know what you think - whether you agree with me or not.[/quote]
I feel like a good neutral middle-ground would to be say "women and trans men" for those who dislike being reminded of their female sex. At the same time however, like I mentioned before, I'm a firm believer in not avoiding the reality of biology because I feel like it could cause complications when conveying important medical information, so I am against the complete removal of the term "woman" or "female" from medical services that are specifically needed by biological women.

I hate seeing a gynecologist. It really is an awful experience, especially as a trans man. However, it's part of reality. In the end, transitioning was a choice I made in the hopes of improving my quality of life. At first I was really triggered by anything related to being female because I felt I had to avoid it like the plague to feel more affirmed in my identity as a man, but in hindsight it was not a healthy mindset to be in. In the end, I cannot become fully "male," and accepting that helped me in a way be more comfortable with being trans. I guess one way I can put it is, if you really believe that you can biologically fully transition to another sex it becomes an impossible goalpost that can only bring frustration. In the end it is cosmetic, and that is a really hard pill to swallow. It took me a very long time to come to terms with it. I think obfuscating that fact is harmful.

Regarding pregnancy I have a bit more complicated opinions. On one hand, if I ever became pregnant I would absolutely hate being called a woman. I would be miserable. With that in mind, I can understand the use of the terms "pregnant person." At the same time, I can't understand why someone with strong dysphoria would willingly continue a pregnancy and while I can see the good intentions behind referring to pregnant women as "pregnant people" I can understand why it would alienate women or make them feel othered. I think if I became pregnant personally I would find a doctor who was willing to respect my identity, but I have very strong opinions about forcing speech onto people outside of those who matter contextually.

Please note however, that I am not representative of all trans men and I am sure there are many who strongly prefer gender neutral terms, these are just my own thoughts.

StrangeLookingParasite · 04/03/2021 20:15

if you really believe that you can biologically fully transition to another sex it becomes an impossible goalpost that can only bring frustration

This is absolutely excellent summation.

kaineus · 04/03/2021 20:19

@AnotherEmma

PS Sorry I forgot to add that I would also be interested in your thoughts on replacing "breastfeeding" with "chestfeeding"... I don't know whether you would consider having a baby and breastfeeding, but if you did, do you think you would be offended or triggered by calling it that, and would you prefer "chestfeeding"?
Breast cancer can affect men as well, so I see no reason to adopt the term chestfeeding. (unless you want to call breast cancer "chest cancer" specifically when referring to men! Confused)

I can understand why some trans men would want to use it, but it sounds odd to me.

Ninkanink · 04/03/2021 20:33

OP. I definitely agree with everything you’ve said.

As a long-standing member of this board, I totally agree with all your points. Thank you for educating us.

**please understand that not all words I use might make sense to you. They may or may not mean the things you think they mean. However, I 100% know what I mean, and that is all that matters. Again, thank you.

ErrolTheDragon · 04/03/2021 21:09

@Clymene

Thanks *@kaineus*. Your post makes complete sense to me
Me too. Thanks for signing up, and please do stick around. You've clearly put a heck of a lot of thought into all this, and arrived at sensible and humane conclusions. Thanks
Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 04/03/2021 21:52

@kaineus

I'm sorry, but this thread finally made me make an account after a year of lurking.

I am a trans man from the USA. As a note, I don't care what pronouns you use for as I don't agree with the concept of compelled speech. I would prefer he/him, but it's not my place to tell you how to refer to me. I have experienced gender dysphoria from a young age and have legally and medically transitioned.

The idea that trans people are oppressed in the USA is questionable. I have never been denied healthcare due to being trans. In fact, getting hormones only took one short appointment due to informed consent here. For top surgery in my state there are very few requirements and you do not have to have taken HRT or have medically transitioned in order to have it covered by insurance. I found I was actually treated worse in the beginning stages of my transition when people still viewed me as female. I think people are confusing "oppressed for being trans" with "oppressed for not being gender conforming" or "oppressed because of homophobia" (many people still assume that trans women are simply gay men.)

This statement gave me pause because it seems to be contradictory in nature:
"My understanding of the last few waves of feminism has been to distance the patriarchal concept of defining women by their reproductive organs, while still taking pride in our bodies as a middle finger to the patriarchy."

Your reproductive organs are still part of your body. It's part of what makes you female. Consider this: it's not uncommon to talk about/hear about male genitalia online, but have you noticed that it's often considered gross/taboo to talk about female genitalia or things like periods? Why do you suppose this is?

I consider myself to be a realist. Despite presenting as male, I know I am still female. As a female human being, there are problems that will affect me and other female persons that a trans woman will never face. This is where my identity as a "man" conflicts with reality. I may present as a man, but at the end of the day I am still female and share more in common biologically with any woman than I do with any trans woman. Women's rights usually focuses on women's reproductive issues or issues that affect women due to the biological reality of their sex, so while I may identify as a man, they are obviously quite important to me because of this. Before, the trans community had an understanding of the difference between gender presentation and sex, but it seems like it is becoming muddled ever since we started coming up with many other new genders and ways to be "trans."

I apologize if this entire post seems hypocritical. I know I have takes that are considered very unacceptable from the trans community. I am trans for my own personal comfort, but I know that does not make me a "real man." There are women, men, and trans women and trans men. We all have our own unique needs and to lump them all together seems like it will cause nothing but harm to one group or another, especially considering medical needs. While this fantasy that you are magically another sex if you simply say so is great in theory, it is not grounded in reality. If I get medical treatment under the assumption I am biologically male it could be potentially deadly. I have not had bottom surgery, so if I have sex with a man I can still get pregnant because my body is female.

OP you say you identify as nonbinary with xe/xem pronouns if I recall? How is this any different from identifying as a woman or how does it affect your life? When I see any nonbinary person with non-standard pronouns it is typically safe to assume they are AFAB, and many other trans people I know have commented on this as well.

So what does being a woman mean to you? What does non-binary mean to you? Do you believe you face discrimination as a non-binary person rather than as a woman? If so, how can someone else tell what your gender is if you have not medically transitioned? Also, how does saying you are not a woman help advance feminism or women's rights? Do you feel like being a woman is inherently negative?

Excellent post and welcome
Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/03/2021 21:59

Thank you for your thoughtful posts kaineus

FamilyOfAliens · 04/03/2021 22:01

Frankly, it doesn't matter if you're offended by it, the word isn't going away; it's useful and is the correct latin form opposite of trans.

Thank you for laying out so clearly that you have no respect for women’s views. Much appreciated.

FamilyOfAliens · 04/03/2021 22:01

And if you’re insisting on correct use of language, Latin has a capital L, being a proper noun.

AnotherEmma · 04/03/2021 22:12

@kaineus
Thank you very much for answering my questions.
I agree with you that "women and trans men" could be a good solution in most contexts, and I would much prefer it to "people", personally, but of course others might feel differently.
I'm sorry that seeing a gynaecologist is difficult for you, I can only imagine. It sounds as if you've had a difficult journey and I am glad you have reached a place of accepting / reconciling your female biology with your identity as a man.
Regarding pregnancy, I agree with this point: "I can't understand why someone with strong dysphoria would willingly continue a pregnancy".
Of course I understand that you can't speak for all trans men. I would be really interested to know if there has been any research into this area (ie asking trans men about their preferences for use of language in services for biological females).

PotholeParadies · 04/03/2021 22:17

kaineus

Thank you for your posts. I really appreciated your post, because it was so refreshing. I suspect we disagree on much, but you were civil, nuanced while expressing your own viewpoint.

One of the worst things about the internet is that it constantly exacerbates my misanthropy by confronts me with the worse sides to humanity - like people shouting past each other and throwing opinions around like a tennis ball to the face!

Your posts have been the opposite of that. It's been glorious to see someone I may disagree with but would be willing to go out for a drink with!

Ninkanink · 04/03/2021 22:20

@kaineus

I'm sorry, but this thread finally made me make an account after a year of lurking.

I am a trans man from the USA. As a note, I don't care what pronouns you use for as I don't agree with the concept of compelled speech. I would prefer he/him, but it's not my place to tell you how to refer to me. I have experienced gender dysphoria from a young age and have legally and medically transitioned.

The idea that trans people are oppressed in the USA is questionable. I have never been denied healthcare due to being trans. In fact, getting hormones only took one short appointment due to informed consent here. For top surgery in my state there are very few requirements and you do not have to have taken HRT or have medically transitioned in order to have it covered by insurance. I found I was actually treated worse in the beginning stages of my transition when people still viewed me as female. I think people are confusing "oppressed for being trans" with "oppressed for not being gender conforming" or "oppressed because of homophobia" (many people still assume that trans women are simply gay men.)

This statement gave me pause because it seems to be contradictory in nature:
"My understanding of the last few waves of feminism has been to distance the patriarchal concept of defining women by their reproductive organs, while still taking pride in our bodies as a middle finger to the patriarchy."

Your reproductive organs are still part of your body. It's part of what makes you female. Consider this: it's not uncommon to talk about/hear about male genitalia online, but have you noticed that it's often considered gross/taboo to talk about female genitalia or things like periods? Why do you suppose this is?

I consider myself to be a realist. Despite presenting as male, I know I am still female. As a female human being, there are problems that will affect me and other female persons that a trans woman will never face. This is where my identity as a "man" conflicts with reality. I may present as a man, but at the end of the day I am still female and share more in common biologically with any woman than I do with any trans woman. Women's rights usually focuses on women's reproductive issues or issues that affect women due to the biological reality of their sex, so while I may identify as a man, they are obviously quite important to me because of this. Before, the trans community had an understanding of the difference between gender presentation and sex, but it seems like it is becoming muddled ever since we started coming up with many other new genders and ways to be "trans."

I apologize if this entire post seems hypocritical. I know I have takes that are considered very unacceptable from the trans community. I am trans for my own personal comfort, but I know that does not make me a "real man." There are women, men, and trans women and trans men. We all have our own unique needs and to lump them all together seems like it will cause nothing but harm to one group or another, especially considering medical needs. While this fantasy that you are magically another sex if you simply say so is great in theory, it is not grounded in reality. If I get medical treatment under the assumption I am biologically male it could be potentially deadly. I have not had bottom surgery, so if I have sex with a man I can still get pregnant because my body is female.

OP you say you identify as nonbinary with xe/xem pronouns if I recall? How is this any different from identifying as a woman or how does it affect your life? When I see any nonbinary person with non-standard pronouns it is typically safe to assume they are AFAB, and many other trans people I know have commented on this as well.

So what does being a woman mean to you? What does non-binary mean to you? Do you believe you face discrimination as a non-binary person rather than as a woman? If so, how can someone else tell what your gender is if you have not medically transitioned? Also, how does saying you are not a woman help advance feminism or women's rights? Do you feel like being a woman is inherently negative?

Welcome. Flowers
AnotherEmma · 04/03/2021 22:24

@PotholeParadies

kaineus

Thank you for your posts. I really appreciated your post, because it was so refreshing. I suspect we disagree on much, but you were civil, nuanced while expressing your own viewpoint.

One of the worst things about the internet is that it constantly exacerbates my misanthropy by confronts me with the worse sides to humanity - like people shouting past each other and throwing opinions around like a tennis ball to the face!

Your posts have been the opposite of that. It's been glorious to see someone I may disagree with but would be willing to go out for a drink with!

Agree!
Winesalot · 04/03/2021 22:36

@kaineus

I'm sorry, but this thread finally made me make an account after a year of lurking.

I am a trans man from the USA. As a note, I don't care what pronouns you use for as I don't agree with the concept of compelled speech. I would prefer he/him, but it's not my place to tell you how to refer to me. I have experienced gender dysphoria from a young age and have legally and medically transitioned.

The idea that trans people are oppressed in the USA is questionable. I have never been denied healthcare due to being trans. In fact, getting hormones only took one short appointment due to informed consent here. For top surgery in my state there are very few requirements and you do not have to have taken HRT or have medically transitioned in order to have it covered by insurance. I found I was actually treated worse in the beginning stages of my transition when people still viewed me as female. I think people are confusing "oppressed for being trans" with "oppressed for not being gender conforming" or "oppressed because of homophobia" (many people still assume that trans women are simply gay men.)

This statement gave me pause because it seems to be contradictory in nature:
"My understanding of the last few waves of feminism has been to distance the patriarchal concept of defining women by their reproductive organs, while still taking pride in our bodies as a middle finger to the patriarchy."

Your reproductive organs are still part of your body. It's part of what makes you female. Consider this: it's not uncommon to talk about/hear about male genitalia online, but have you noticed that it's often considered gross/taboo to talk about female genitalia or things like periods? Why do you suppose this is?

I consider myself to be a realist. Despite presenting as male, I know I am still female. As a female human being, there are problems that will affect me and other female persons that a trans woman will never face. This is where my identity as a "man" conflicts with reality. I may present as a man, but at the end of the day I am still female and share more in common biologically with any woman than I do with any trans woman. Women's rights usually focuses on women's reproductive issues or issues that affect women due to the biological reality of their sex, so while I may identify as a man, they are obviously quite important to me because of this. Before, the trans community had an understanding of the difference between gender presentation and sex, but it seems like it is becoming muddled ever since we started coming up with many other new genders and ways to be "trans."

I apologize if this entire post seems hypocritical. I know I have takes that are considered very unacceptable from the trans community. I am trans for my own personal comfort, but I know that does not make me a "real man." There are women, men, and trans women and trans men. We all have our own unique needs and to lump them all together seems like it will cause nothing but harm to one group or another, especially considering medical needs. While this fantasy that you are magically another sex if you simply say so is great in theory, it is not grounded in reality. If I get medical treatment under the assumption I am biologically male it could be potentially deadly. I have not had bottom surgery, so if I have sex with a man I can still get pregnant because my body is female.

OP you say you identify as nonbinary with xe/xem pronouns if I recall? How is this any different from identifying as a woman or how does it affect your life? When I see any nonbinary person with non-standard pronouns it is typically safe to assume they are AFAB, and many other trans people I know have commented on this as well.

So what does being a woman mean to you? What does non-binary mean to you? Do you believe you face discrimination as a non-binary person rather than as a woman? If so, how can someone else tell what your gender is if you have not medically transitioned? Also, how does saying you are not a woman help advance feminism or women's rights? Do you feel like being a woman is inherently negative?

Thank you for posting and for delurking. It’d be great if you felt comfortable to post more often, it’d be wonderful to have a different perspective to consider. A considered perspective at that. Flowers
lookout198991 · 04/03/2021 23:02

@WellityWellityWellity

I think most Mumsnetters actually don't get involved in any of the conversation around trans on here. I am one of those Mumsnetters! Until now anyway!

I am here mainly for the Style and Beauty board and the Baby Names board. Sometimes I get dragged into the weight problem chats, but I try to avoid those too, as a vocal minority of Mumsnetters are fatphobic cunts.

Anyway, as to your question; I am happy to use pronouns he / she / they or whatever the person would like. I personally don't identify with any gender, but I'm a natal woman, (cis, if you must), as I was born with a vagina, uterus etc. I've given birth, had periods, breastfed and so on.

What has bothered me about the wider conversation, outside Mumsnet, is the notion that a trans woman can self identify as a woman and walk straight into female only spaces. Do I think all trans women are evil rapists, just because some of them choose not to undergo the full surgery and still have a penis etc? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! I'm not a nutcase. Obviously, I don't think that and if I meet a transwoman in normal day to day life, I chat to her as a woman, as far as that's even a thing.

Do I think someone who identified (publicly at least) as a man yesterday and identifies as a woman today, should be able to access changing rooms with women and little girls in there? No, sorry, I don't. It's because I've had bad experiences with penis owners, (not necessarily men, obviously). And the problem was indeed, their penis. So it does make me a little jumpy if I'm butt naked and unexpectedly there's someone with me, in a female only space with their penis on full show. Maybe this is a 'me' problem and I just shouldn't use public changing rooms? Who knows what the wider population thinks? I know what MN thinks, so nobody needs to tell me from here. But interested in what op thinks. Genuinely interested. Not wishing to goad.

I also find it irritating that women are the ones having to accommodate trans, while men don't. Trans men use female prisons (it wouldn't be safe to have them in with cis men). Transwomen also use female prisons. So cis women have to accommodate. Cis men don't seem to have to accommodate, and they are clearly the problem (sorry menz) if both transwomen and trans men feel unsafe being housed with them.

Womens health it is sometime suggested should be changed to be more inclusive....oh what was it "health for people who get pregnant and bleed" 🤢. But I didn't see anyone saying mens health should be changed to "people who have penises and ejaculate". Or maybe I missed it.

It annoys me that womens issues panels now have people who lived lives as highly privileged men, (although they were trans women all along). But nobody knew that, so they were treated by others, with the same level of privilege that white, wealthy men tend to receive. Now they are experts on issues facing women, having lived openly as women for only a short time...? Are they? I know when we consider intersectionality, they are under privileged because they are trans, and if they joined a panel for trans rights I'd think "yes, of course, you know more about that". But they have lived with the privilege afforded to men, for a long time already. Seems a bit much for them to now have a voice on a panel for issues affecting a historically oppressed section of society, (women I mean...or is it people with uteri?), on the face of it.

Just my thoughts. I very rarely voice them on here.

I do think refusing to use someone's pronouns is shitty. I do think transpeople are discriminated against generally and do face a number of dangers just for living their lives and that is unacceptable. Trans rights are human rights - yes, absolutely. But, women (cis), also are human and have rights. So, there is a balance and a conversation to be had, without people screaming TERF or cis scum at anyone who wants to have that conversation.

I've come across this issue more and more by being on the site over the past few months, and this post sums up my thoughts on the matter very well.

A couple of other things which have focused my mind on the issue:

  • I feel genuinely concerned about the rise in young people identifying as trans. I suffered with an eating disorder as a teenager, and (although I am sure it's not the same), I have some experience of feeling a strong sense that my body was 'wrong' somehow. I am grateful that I was able to access support that challenged my thinking and lead me to understand that the issue was with my mind, not my body, and that I have been able to go on and lead a full life, unhindered by the choices I was making as a teenager. I fear teenagers who are questioning their gender identity do not receive the same support. I worry that affirming their gender dysphoria and allowing them to make irreversible alterations to their bodies will not be good for their wellbeing long-term. I wonder whether they would not, in many cases, be happier if they were told that it is not possible to change their biological sex, but were encouraged to break any gender stereotype they liked.
  • Like others, I am genuinely confused about what 'living as a woman/living as a man' means. Some of the discussions I have seen around transitioning seem to reinforce tired gender stereotypes. Someone put it well on a thread I read the other day when they said something like 'there is just sex. Everything else is personality'.

I would also add that I would be anxious to express these opinions in RL. Not because I am not ashamed of them, or generally afraid to speak my mind. But because saying anything other than TWAW and expressing any concerns about how transgender rights might impact women's rights seems to be a recipe for reputational ruin - I genuinely would fear the consequences for my career etc. And, of course, my aim is not to upset or offend any transgender people. So I am grateful to Mumsnet for providing a place where these issues can be openly discussed.

(And it is such a minefield that I'm worried I've said something in this post that will warrant deletion. I can think of so few topics where this would be the case. Which is a sign of the problem really.)

Pandoraslastchance · 04/03/2021 23:37

When I was in therapy we did a module called radical acceptance and the idea of it was that there are some things in life that are hurtful to us but cannot be changed and we must learn to live with it in order to find inner peace/stop tormenting yourself. I have accepted that I will never be tall, give birth vaginally or fly. I cannot do anything to change those things, no matter how hard I wish. All I can do is accept.

@kaineus, welcome to mumsnet.