My friendships

[ACovidofWitches]

I have a close group of friends I've know for about 10 years. These are really clever, thoughtful people in their 40's. Two have a disability. Two have experienced domestic abuse that I know of. One experienced sexual abuse as a child (again it could be more than one)

Anyway, one posted on FB today about Janice Turner's latest article - and it turns out they all think she's awful. I had an inkling they didn't share my gender critical views but it's all coming out now. They think Janice has an agenda (that she's targeting vulnerable trans women in the way black women have been targeted by racists because it's a kind of sport, I suppose). They think transwomen experience the highest degree of abuse that any women experience and it's outrageous anyone could try to bar them from refuges. They are such clever people - how can they not see how many women have been murdered in the last year just for starters? They think women supporting Janice are doing terrible harm because if we would only let a tiny minority of trans women in our refuges, we could use our time and energy more wisely and actually achieve something useful.

Not one of these women has ever used a refuge or been in prison or hospital where they have felt incredibly vulnerable (none has children, so they haven't even been in hospital to give birth, for example). I have, in fact, been in one of those (it's the internet, I'm going to choose not to disclose more details) and I can say from horrible lived experience that single-sex provisions matter very profoundly.

I can't continue with these friendships. I believe very strongly in having a wide mix of friends with different beliefs. But I'm sitting here feeling so angry and sad that women could harm their own interests like this. They think their position is a kind one. They think they are being inclusive. I'm so upset, I didn't know what else to do but post here where people understand. I envy those of you who have friends who are on the same page. I hadn't realised these people I respected so much think so differently to me.

OP, rather than leave the friendship, wouldn't it be worth trying to engage them on the subject? Not on FB obviously - that could be a disaster - but when you can meet up face to face again. You may not be able to convince them, but then again you may be able to get them to question some of their beliefs. They sound like the kind of women who would be open to a sensible, measured debate on the subject.

It's always difficult to find out that people you are close to or respected can have some very fundamentally different viewpoints from yourself.

I think many women mean well and haven't really thought through the issues or looked at the evidence more carefully. People tend to mindlessly adopt viewpoints and stances that are popular in their peer group because it's usually not possible to examine every issue deeply. They assume that because they and their friends are nice people overall, that therefore if their peers support this particular issue it must be the right thing to do.

What I try to do on my social media is post articles and news items that focus on women and girls. So I post about sex selective abortions in places like India and China, FGM, articles about the levels of violence against women etc. I posted about the counting dead women project. I post about how women and men have different heart attack symptoms and so on.

The idea is to repetitively get the message across about the scale of violence against women and that it's not something we can simply identify out of... And also that there are biological differences between the sexes (remember use sex and not gender) that impact on our lives in various ways.

If you can spark off discussions around women focused issues, it might plant a seed in some women's minds that could cause them to question some of the TRA rhetoric further down the line?

I think the fact that none of them has children explains a lot. Not saying this to annoy the childless posters on here but few experiences demonstrate the reality of sex as effectively as being pregnant and giving birth.

Maybe you could, very gently, suggest that your life experience - your truth - makes you reticent to just dismiss Janice Turner. And that you’re still a bit unsure as to what they mean by ‘trans’.

I’ve lost friends over this but that wasn’t my choice. If your friends choose to walk away, then that’s on them.

@MangoSplit

OP, rather than leave the friendship, wouldn't it be worth trying to engage them on the subject? Not on FB obviously - that could be a disaster - but when you can meet up face to face again. You may not be able to convince them, but then again you may be able to get them to question some of their beliefs. They sound like the kind of women who would be open to a sensible, measured debate on the subject.

I think I would have said that except seeing them post what they are has shaken me so deeply. But maybe it is worth a try. I think it's like realising all your friends are swallowing QAnon stuff - I don't think they'll be that easily persuaded away from their beliefs is my gut instinct.

If you can spark off discussions around women focused issues, it might plant a seed in some women's minds that could cause them to question some of the TRA rhetoric further down the line?

This is such a good idea and it's definitely worth a try. I already do it to an extent and honestly, these friends have seen me post that kind of stuff for years. It's the weirdest feeling when they're all feminists, they all know something about the scale of violence against women and they can still post that trans women are the most vulnerable women ever and don't mean anyone any harm. There comes a point where I have to give up and accept they're brainwashed. But it's worth keeping at it.

And I think one of the saddest things is I think they are all giving the trans issues a lot of thought rather than going along with the crowd - that's the type of people they are. They read a lot, they like getting into debates pretty deeply. So they've read all sides and still come to these conclusions. What can you do with that? I think that's the most difficult thing for me. They have looked at all the same evidence I have and are coming down on the side of harming women.

Thank you for your input though, I appreciate it. I need to find a way of meeting up with gc women in real life. It is so important.

Not saying this to annoy the childless posters on here but few experiences demonstrate the reality of sex as effectively as being pregnant and giving birth.

It's fair enough. I don't have children but I have other experiences in life which meant I came up against my own biology and sexism at a very early age. It makes this debate very personal. I also have a medical condition which only women get which has made life very hard for me. How I'd love to identify out of it.

They have looked at all the same evidence I have and are coming down on the side of harming women.

Oh that's pretty shit.

I have a family member who works as a mental health nurse. Her attitude to letting men onto female wards because they identify as women shocked me. As someone who has been on a mental health ward more than once, for her to dismiss my feelings of vulnerability as 'transphobia' was really hurtful. I know where you're coming from OP. I can't see her in the same light anymore, and maybe I should try to talk to her about it but for a woman to just automatically throw us all under the bus like that is quite shocking. Her words were "I'm not prepared to put her through the trauma of being on a male ward"

@IAmFleshIAmBone

I have a family member who works as a mental health nurse. Her attitude to letting men onto female wards because they identify as women shocked me. As someone who has been on a mental health ward more than once, for her to dismiss my feelings of vulnerability as 'transphobia' was really hurtful. I know where you're coming from OP. I can't see her in the same light anymore, and maybe I should try to talk to her about it but for a woman to just automatically throw us all under the bus like that is quite shocking. Her words were "I'm not prepared to put her through the trauma of being on a male ward"

Thank you for sharing that. See, I would defend your right to a single-sex psychiatric ward with everything in me. When you are at your most vulnerable, you deserve to have your needs put first and that includes needing privacy, safety and dignity. I can't understand either how other women don't get that. It's a tragedy.

Comparing some adult males with women of colour as though they are somehow part of the same group is misogynistic, racist bullshit. Two sex classes. The first group is, and always will be, part of the oppressor class.

The faux oppression pisses me off.
They are the safest demographic on the UK. They get everything they demand.

none has children

There’s your answer. It was having children that woke me up to how inherently misogynist and male-centered our society still is. The fact that women go through these experiences (infertility, miscarriage, labour, post-birth injury, breastfeeding) and they are treated as a joke, a taboo or a cheap plot device in soap operas was a real wake-up call. These experiences are fundamental to human existence. We wouldn’t be here without them yet because the dominant half of humanity doesn’t have the biology that fits with these experiences, they are treated as ‘women’s issues’ and therefore not worth investment, support, or being taken seriously.

TL:DR: it’s easy to wax lyrical about trans rights when those rights don’t impinge on your own hard-won rights.

Thank you for sharing that. See, I would defend your right to a single-sex psychiatric ward with everything in me. When you are at your most vulnerable, you deserve to have your needs put first and that includes needing privacy, safety and dignity. I can't understand either how other women don't get that. It's a tragedy.

It is, it's heartbreaking. We are fighting the good fight but it's exhausting. And there are so few places where we can discuss this freely!

In the UK, the number of transwomen mudered each year for the past ten years, averages out at less than one per year.
There were 241 female murder victims in the UK for the y/e March 2019.

Yes, if you are going to lose them anyway, you may as well do a little good first, by telling what you can. So far, you are in the group and they will not find it easy to erase your reasoning with disrespect.

While reading the thread I suddenly thought of an analogy.
A man declares he has now self identified as a child. Should he be allowed to spend the night in a children's ward?

As others have said, OP, don't leave the group without saying anything. You have nothing to lose by responding with some cold, hard facts. Like the one posted by Andyoldlabour above. Take any emotion out of it, just confront them with the facts of the matter and ask them to reconsider why women like JT are resisting these changes. Maybe they are not that week informed. Give them Karen White and Tara Wolf. Give them Pip Bunce and Labour's all women short list scandal. Give them Yaniv pursuing poor women of colour, and Morgan Over pursuing a woman's refuge. Give them Kiera Bell and the morally and ethically questionable actions of the Tavistock. Give them the cotton ceiling. IMO, telling them they don't understand because they didn't have children is divisive and unnecessary. You shouldn't need to have had children to have empathy and compassion for your own sex. If they still don't get it, then walk away with your head held high, because they are really are not the sort of people you want to be friends with.

To add to PPs posts, maybe ask them the Staniland question?

A man declares he has now self identified as a child. Should he be allowed to spend the night in a children's ward?

Look up Stefonknee Walsh.

Do they think Pips Bunce is a woman and should be entitled to use women's facilities, and should be congratulated for winning a women's award in business?

What about Philip Bunce? Is he a woman? Should he access women's services? Is it appropriate for him to win a women's award in business?

What changes in them between Pips and Philip days? What are the differences between the 'woman' and the man?

How did so many women become so gullible? This is new. I don't think women in the 1950's would have been such pushovers.

Another thought: don't use the language of those who wish to take away our rights and dignity. We are fighting FOR the safety of women and girls. We are fighting FOR women's rights. We are fighting for the right to state biological facts. And don't feel obliged to use pleasant sounding euphemisms for what are actually atrocities.

Contact Sports. Lesbians being kicked out of lesbian groups. Mixed age rooms (13 year old girls changing with naked 50 year old males, sleeping in dorms/wards etc). Keira Bell.

Plant the seed.

But yeah it’s a horrible feeling. I’ve lost a host of Facebook friends and I’ve only posted concerns about medical treatment of teens!

It’s such a shock that that ‘vulnerable’ can be applied in such vague and blanket terms so unquestionably. A 6ft 5, 50 year old white male executive is now more vulnerable than someone in any other group - really?

Going along with this is the safe option. You can't then be accused of not being kind. I think it is virtue signalling because there is no logical sense in many of the activist arguments. I have similar in my life too and it has surprised me. Many of my friends discuss the issues in private with me and several have messaged privately to say thanks for posting on social media. I hear things like "its mad! but?" But not one will support what I am saying publicly. I begin to see how bad things have happened historically. We always wonder, why did people go along with it? Well I think the answers are myriad, but sometimes it is the path of least resistance.

Another thought: don't use the language of those who wish to take away our rights and dignity. We are fighting FOR the safety of women and girls. We are fighting FOR women's rights. We are fighting for the right to state biological facts. And don't feel obliged to use pleasant sounding euphemisms for what are actually atrocities.

Absolutely. Here on MN gender critical realists only use the descriptor that includes the word woman because we are not allowed to use the description that refers to the individual's sex. It's a three-word phrase that abbreviates to a three-letter boy's name. But I certainly use it in RL.

It’s just as bad when the person who has completely drunk the Kool-Aid is your own daughter

And other words, such as mastectomy, hysterectomy and penectomy.

Accurate language is important.

Pronouns are Rohypnol

While I don't suggest you do this overtly - it would likely make your ' kind' friends hostile - the occasional use could be very effective, such as when discussing a TW's demand to occupy a female space.

I'm so sorry, OP. It's such an awful feeling.