My friendships

[ACovidofWitches]

I have a close group of friends I've know for about 10 years. These are really clever, thoughtful people in their 40's. Two have a disability. Two have experienced domestic abuse that I know of. One experienced sexual abuse as a child (again it could be more than one)

Anyway, one posted on FB today about Janice Turner's latest article - and it turns out they all think she's awful. I had an inkling they didn't share my gender critical views but it's all coming out now. They think Janice has an agenda (that she's targeting vulnerable trans women in the way black women have been targeted by racists because it's a kind of sport, I suppose). They think transwomen experience the highest degree of abuse that any women experience and it's outrageous anyone could try to bar them from refuges. They are such clever people - how can they not see how many women have been murdered in the last year just for starters? They think women supporting Janice are doing terrible harm because if we would only let a tiny minority of trans women in our refuges, we could use our time and energy more wisely and actually achieve something useful.

Not one of these women has ever used a refuge or been in prison or hospital where they have felt incredibly vulnerable (none has children, so they haven't even been in hospital to give birth, for example). I have, in fact, been in one of those (it's the internet, I'm going to choose not to disclose more details) and I can say from horrible lived experience that single-sex provisions matter very profoundly.

I can't continue with these friendships. I believe very strongly in having a wide mix of friends with different beliefs. But I'm sitting here feeling so angry and sad that women could harm their own interests like this. They think their position is a kind one. They think they are being inclusive. I'm so upset, I didn't know what else to do but post here where people understand. I envy those of you who have friends who are on the same page. I hadn't realised these people I respected so much think so differently to me.

I only discuss with my friends face to face; and I only use either direct experience or something that has struck very deeply due to direct experience. And I accept that not everyone is going to feel the same.

In that way I've had good conversations in eg reunions of old sports teams and in book clubs, and just plain with other women; and with some men. I've had my views challenged and thought about them too. They haven't always been long conversations but they have been real, and respectful.

I have avoided talking to my most political friends though. I am pretty certain the conversation would get too angry too fast. Even if they have some areas of concern, I think they would see it as an issue where you're either kind or a bigot and there is only one way to be either.

I don't think the trans-allies are the same people who used to support gay rights though. They seem to be mostly under-25 and with notably poorer debate skills than experienced allies of the gay rights movement have.

But the vast majority of older LGB people seem to be supporting trans people as well. And I think it's a little unfair to say under 25s don't support gay rights, they are more likely to identify as LGB than any other age group.

Or could it be that a moral panic has been engineered about a minority group based on hypothetical fears and misinformation which has led a small number of feminists to attack that group along with the religious right and so most feminists have felt the need to speak out in protection of trans people?"

as you well know jj - this isn't about hypothetical fears - this is about what is already happening and the steps that the authorities are taking and potentially planning to make it worse. (like the WESC's apparent attempt to bring in self-id through the back door).

@jj1968

“What's more likely - that an unconnected group of left wing, progressive, gender non-conforming, gay-rights supporting feminists, many of whom have spent their whole lives supporting and campaigning for the rights of women and girls, have suddenly, all at once, become right-wing, homophobic, pearl-clutching bigots. Or, could there just be a conflict of interest and a threat to the safety, dignity and fragile equality gains of women that we feel compelled to act, despite huge personal risk?”

That cuts both ways surely though. As in: “What's more likely - that an the majority of left wing, progressive, gender non-conforming, gay-rights supporting feminists, many of whom have spent their whole lives supporting and campaigning for the rights of women and girls, have suddenly, all at once, become raging misogynists, stupid and brainwashed. Or could it be that a moral panic has been engineered about a minority group based on hypothetical fears and misinformation which has led a small number of feminists to attack that group along with the religious right and so most feminists have felt the need to speak out in protection of trans people?"

I'm old enough to remember the progression towards full rights for gay people - the opposition was always accorded the right to speak - their arguments were listened to and some accommodations were made. As late as 2015 there were debates about whether Tim Farron's private views on homsexuality were relevant - there was disagreement but no one at any time suggested that he wanted "gay people to die" or that he deserved to die himself.

Whether you agree generally with the gender critical cause or not it is not irrational. It is not irrational to say that sex is a more relevant construct than "gender identities" which no one seems able to define. It is not perverse to be loathe the implied sexism of "males can be competitive in sports but females must be content to play for fun if necessary to achieve inclusivity" - a position I have seen expressed quite frequently - it's not an outlying view.

The trans activist movement adopted "No Debate" doesn't believe it can defend its position rationally without resorting to emotional blackmail. The gay rights movement never needed to resort to this because it had reason on its side.

@Apollo440

The fears aren't misplaced no matter how many times you say it or outright ignore the evidence. And it's not a small number of feminists. It's the majority.

And it's not a small number of feminists. It's the majority.

I don't think it is, certainly not globally, or amongst the younger generations. I doubt it is even a majority of older feminists in the UK, given the support of WEP, The Fawcett Society and much of the VAWG sector and other women led groups.

the opposition was always accorded the right to speak - their arguments were listened to and some accommodations were made

They literally threw bricks at coppers, abseiled into parliament, mass trespassed on Baroness Nicholsons lawn, invaded and took over BBC News and 'outed' prominent (straight) people with fly posting campaigns.

@jj1968

I don't think the trans-allies are the same people who used to support gay rights though. They seem to be mostly under-25 and with notably poorer debate skills than experienced allies of the gay rights movement have.

But the vast majority of older LGB people seem to be supporting trans people as well. And I think it's a little unfair to say under 25s don't support gay rights, they are more likely to identify as LGB than any other age group.

They may support it. They're not the ones who worked for it - that was done by the generation they call bigots - and currently they couldn't repeat it if they were called on to do so.

If I ever had the opportunity to persuade someone influential from a conservative traditionalist country that they should introduce gay rights, I wouldn't be getting a young TRA from the anglosphere to help me in the debate.

They don't persuade. They rely on trying to intimidate objectors into silence, which only works if you're in a position of cultural dominance, trying to maintain what you have.

They rely on trying to intimidate objectors into silence,

Thats exactly the kind of thing Thatcher said about loony left bullyboys fighting for gay rights.

I had no idea that Thatcher spent enough time on Usenet to form an opinion on it!

"And in the inner cities—where youngsters must have a decent education if they are to have a better future—that opportunity is all too often snatched from them by hard left education authorities and extremist teachers.

And children who need to be able to count and multiply are learning anti-racist mathematics—whatever that may be.

Children who need to be able to express themselves in clear English are being taught political slogans. [end p6]

Children who need to be taught to respect traditional moral values are being taught that they have an inalienable right to be gay.

And children who need encouragement—and children do so much need encouragement—so many children—they are being taught that our society offers them no future."

Swap gay for trans and it could be the latest diatribe in Spiked or The Telegraph.

Actually, on that subject, has Boris Johnson ever gone after trans people in a column? (I've just had a worrying couple of minutes where I couldn't remember who succeeded David Cameron. Now I remember, I wish I hadn't.)

I think I actually remember reading the famous tank top comment about gay men when it was first printed, but that might be a false memory.

@ACovidofWitches

This probably isn’t much help, but for what it’s worth, I have had a similar experience to you, though in the other direction (and only with one friend, rather than a whole group). For the first time last year I got into a discussion about trans rights with a good friend I’ve known 15 years and found out that her views are similar to yours (and the majority of people on this board) - and so diametrically opposed to mine. I have been through a similar range of thoughts and emotions to those you describe - she’s a thoughtful, intelligent person, we are largely aligned on most political and moral issues - how can it be that her conclusions on this are so radically different to mine? I keep thinking that if I send her enough thoughtfully written articles, and explain to her properly, face to face, why I feel as I do, that she’ll come around to my way of thinking. Last summer we sat together in the park and discussed trans rights and feminism for an hour and a half straight, but couldn’t reach agreement. We’ve discussed a number of times since and still can’t understand where each other are coming from. Sometimes we exchange angry words (like last week, over the M&OMA Bill), but we get over it and move onto other topics. It still upsets me that she holds views that to me are inexplicable, but we value our friendship too much to lose each other over this. I hope you manage to find some sort of resolution with your friends too.

Jj1968 I remember that speech. That 'inalienable right to be gay' phrase and the deliberate opposing of 'moral values' and 'gay' rang so false. I don't remember if clause 28 had already passed at that time, I think it was just after.

I do acknowledge that there is a crossover between RW 'traditional roles' views and gender critical views, because neither will say that biology is irrelevant. And I watch It's a Sin and see Russell T Davies putting his gay characters into drag and into a joyous celebratory gender anarchy, but still allowing them to be the sex they are, because that was what disgusted Thatcher and Anderton and that bunch so much. That men wanted to fuck other men and wouldn't hide it, and that women would fuck other women, and not be ashamed, and would expect to have the lives they wanted to have, in honesty and openness.

And I think of the Goodwin case and its insistence on privacy above all else, that trans people must hide and pass and fear being 'outed' as the sex they are, and all the cosmetic surgery and drugs, and I just feel sad. It feels like a huge wrong turning, a kind of clause 28 of its own, or at least a detour. The ultimate freedom would be for sex to be what it is, not hidden nor denied or doped or operated on.

OP, have you tried pretending to go along with them? Say things like “Of course intact male bodied rapists should be allowed to choose a women’s prison. So what that Karen White sexually assaulted four women inmates - women’s rights to safety and dignity don’t matter a shit, as long as the transwoman feels comfortable in there”
Or “Of course an 18 stone 6 foot 4 in transwoman should be allowed to play in a women’s rugger team or box against women boxers. I know Fallon Fox already fractured a woman’s skull, and said they enjoyed doing it, but we women are all happy to suffer injury to please transwomen, aren’t we?”
I’m sure you can find plenty of other examples- the “This never happens” thread on here is full of them.
Say it with an air of sweet reasonableness and let them realise exactly what they are agreeing to. Perhaps light will dawn, and they’ll eventually see that they are siding with misogynists who have taken a wrecking ball to women’s rights.

Regarding the op, I'd suggest taking a step back and trying and looking at this objectively and seeing what they see. In the week two women's refuges have been defunded gender critical activists have raised a vast sum of money not to keep them open, but to launch a legal case against the census, on the grounds that the data might be out by something like 0.02% due to the way they've advised people to answer the sex question. As petitions are launched and feminists are gearing up to try and save gender pay gap reporting gender critical activists claims this is a waste of time,and that the data is meaningless (and presumably always was given it's always been about gender not sex). A highly prominent gender critical activists in the US has just been outed as someone sympathetic to horrifying antisemitism and a large plank of gender critical ideology is based on her 'research' - and these revelations have been met with near silence from the GC camp. Meanwhile as Trump whips his supporters up against trans people, with all the dangers of lone wolf terror attacks that entails, gender critical activists are producing maps showing the locations of clinics which provide trans healthcare.

And the thing is this is all stuff that is actually happening. The trans take over of the Olympics, the domination of women only shortlists, the toilets full of predatory men claiming to be trans - these are all speculation, no-one is coming across this stuff in their everyday lives, especially younger feminists who have grown up around trans people. They aren't scared, and they don't feel erased, and no amount of ranting at them or bombarding them with often fairly dubious facts is likely to change that.

no-one is coming across this stuff in their everyday lives
Uh huh. Women and their lived experiences don't matter do they? We;re just a bit of happy fluff in men's minds who do all the work men won't be arsed to do.

www.noconflicttheysaid.org/

In the week two women's refuges have been defunded gender critical activists have raised a vast sum of money not to keep them open,

Of course it's completely the fault of GC activists that they got defunded. Totally. If only we'd spent more time honing our psychic skills instead of posting on Mumsnet, eh? We'll be nailing dead rats to their doors and vandalising them soon too, I suppose, to proper stick the boot in like. Nasty witches that we are...

From the Sturdy Pyjamas school of thought that also brought you 'if you see something illegal just report it''.

@yourhairiswinterfire

In the week two women's refuges have been defunded gender critical activists have raised a vast sum of money not to keep them open,

Of course it's completely the fault of GC activists that they got defunded. Totally. If only we'd spent more time honing our psychic skills instead of posting on Mumsnet, eh? We'll be nailing dead rats to their doors and vandalising them soon too, I suppose, to proper stick the boot in like. Nasty witches that we are...

Of course it's not the fault of GC activists, neither is it the fault of Stonewall as Janice Turner's piece which led to this thread attempted to claim. And it wouldn't take someone neutral long to find this out which is why reasonable people might think Turner is waging some kind of vendetta against trans people as the op's friends surmised.

And it would have been reassuring had the GC movement turned some of its impressive fundraising abilities towards supporting those service rather than spending vast sums on a very likely futile legal action against the census which to even GC sympathetic moderates looks ridiculously petty.

@andyoldlabour

In the UK, the number of transwomen mudered each year for the past ten years, averages out at less than one per year. There were 241 female murder victims in the UK for the y/e March 2019.

Just show them the real stats...

I keep thinking that if I send her enough thoughtfully written articles

Can you post links to some of these @Helen8220? I'd be interested in seeing some thoughtfully written articles from 'the other side'.

I would certainly try to engage them before ending the friendships. I have a gay friend who has always been staunchly pro-trans. I finally made him aware of my gender critical views, and we have had civil discussions about it. I really value him as a friend and respect him so I just couldn't imagine tossing the friendship without at least trying to talk about it, and we have been able to without souring the friendship.

If they are real friends, they will hear you out. And who knows, you might even change some of their minds.

Jj you do notice that the defunding of the refuges has actually happened?

@jj1968 You are brilliant 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻