My friendships

[ACovidofWitches]

I have a close group of friends I've know for about 10 years. These are really clever, thoughtful people in their 40's. Two have a disability. Two have experienced domestic abuse that I know of. One experienced sexual abuse as a child (again it could be more than one)

Anyway, one posted on FB today about Janice Turner's latest article - and it turns out they all think she's awful. I had an inkling they didn't share my gender critical views but it's all coming out now. They think Janice has an agenda (that she's targeting vulnerable trans women in the way black women have been targeted by racists because it's a kind of sport, I suppose). They think transwomen experience the highest degree of abuse that any women experience and it's outrageous anyone could try to bar them from refuges. They are such clever people - how can they not see how many women have been murdered in the last year just for starters? They think women supporting Janice are doing terrible harm because if we would only let a tiny minority of trans women in our refuges, we could use our time and energy more wisely and actually achieve something useful.

Not one of these women has ever used a refuge or been in prison or hospital where they have felt incredibly vulnerable (none has children, so they haven't even been in hospital to give birth, for example). I have, in fact, been in one of those (it's the internet, I'm going to choose not to disclose more details) and I can say from horrible lived experience that single-sex provisions matter very profoundly.

I can't continue with these friendships. I believe very strongly in having a wide mix of friends with different beliefs. But I'm sitting here feeling so angry and sad that women could harm their own interests like this. They think their position is a kind one. They think they are being inclusive. I'm so upset, I didn't know what else to do but post here where people understand. I envy those of you who have friends who are on the same page. I hadn't realised these people I respected so much think so differently to me.

Thank you everyone. I am reading your responses, I've just been thinking this all over. It's been very upsetting.

I don't know what to do in all honesty. There is definitely a part of me that wants to try to talk to these people if I am walking away. What is there to lose? They might change their minds. Except if they won't budge, it's potentially just very upsetting and draining to end up in a huge row. I sit and think about staying friends with these people and in so many ways that is a good idea - good friendships matter. We go back a long way. I then just come back to the fact I so strongly believe this ideology harms women. It's real, tangible harm and it's the reason we're all here fighting this. It matters. I can't have a phone chat about other things with these women and pretend I'm ok with the fact they're supporting such a dangerous ideology. That's what it boils down to for me however much they are convinced they are being kind. The more individuals that support this ideology, the more society changes in the direction of women being put at greater risk. There are lots of other people out there to build new relationships, is what it boils down to for me. It is really painful but that's the conclusion I keep coming to.

[quote Helen8220]@ACovidofWitches

This probably isn’t much help, but for what it’s worth, I have had a similar experience to you, though in the other direction (and only with one friend, rather than a whole group). For the first time last year I got into a discussion about trans rights with a good friend I’ve known 15 years and found out that her views are similar to yours (and the majority of people on this board) - and so diametrically opposed to mine. I have been through a similar range of thoughts and emotions to those you describe - she’s a thoughtful, intelligent person, we are largely aligned on most political and moral issues - how can it be that her conclusions on this are so radically different to mine? I keep thinking that if I send her enough thoughtfully written articles, and explain to her properly, face to face, why I feel as I do, that she’ll come around to my way of thinking. Last summer we sat together in the park and discussed trans rights and feminism for an hour and a half straight, but couldn’t reach agreement. We’ve discussed a number of times since and still can’t understand where each other are coming from. Sometimes we exchange angry words (like last week, over the M&OMA Bill), but we get over it and move onto other topics. It still upsets me that she holds views that to me are inexplicable, but we value our friendship too much to lose each other over this. I hope you manage to find some sort of resolution with your friends too.[/quote]
Thank you, it's interesting to hear your perspective even if we are on other sides of the debate.

Oh and I'd also welcome you sharing those thoughtfully written articles - that's a genuine ask. Because I have read very widely and never seen anything produced which argues in favour of the TRA cause which has impressed me, being honest. But I'm always happy to read more.

@ACovidofWitches

Thank you everyone. I am reading your responses, I've just been thinking this all over. It's been very upsetting.

I don't know what to do in all honesty. There is definitely a part of me that wants to try to talk to these people if I am walking away. What is there to lose? They might change their minds. Except if they won't budge, it's potentially just very upsetting and draining to end up in a huge row. I sit and think about staying friends with these people and in so many ways that is a good idea - good friendships matter. We go back a long way. I then just come back to the fact I so strongly believe this ideology harms women. It's real, tangible harm and it's the reason we're all here fighting this. It matters. I can't have a phone chat about other things with these women and pretend I'm ok with the fact they're supporting such a dangerous ideology. That's what it boils down to for me however much they are convinced they are being kind. The more individuals that support this ideology, the more society changes in the direction of women being put at greater risk. There are lots of other people out there to build new relationships, is what it boils down to for me. It is really painful but that's the conclusion I keep coming to.

(((HUGS)))

This is not much of a comfort but there will be people who have not commented on that Janice Turner article who are think phew! I'm not the only one - they wont come out directly against the comments but will be thinking about the stuff. Its depressing when you realise that people you thought you knew hold such apalling ideas.

In the week two women's refuges have been defunded gender critical activists have raised a vast sum of money not to keep them open, but to launch a legal case against the census, on the grounds that the data might be out by something like 0.02% due to the way they've advised people to answer the sex question.

You really don’t give women an inch do you jj. In the few days since it launched the fundraiser for Monklands Women’s Aid has already raised £5000. They have existing grassroots fundraising and that is just one of the defunded shelters so I’m sure there are fundraisers running for the others as well.

I am not clear on what basis you claim that the impact on the census will be so minimal as the key point is - we don’t have any decent data on how many trans people there are.

Spending nearly £1m on a census is a ridiculous waste of taxpayers money if they are deliberately creating an unnecessary level of inaccuracy in the data before they even start!! We need to know how many males, females and trans people there are.

There is no benefit or justification for trans people to conceal their birth sex - in fact it just makes things worse for everyone and the fact that the ONS are so scared of the Stonewall lobbyists that they are prepared to ignore the advice from their regulatory body is a very bad thing.

why was i deleted, @mnhq?

ok, i give up: 2 plus 2 is 5 and transwomen in women's refuges pose zero threat to the natal female residents.

Is that better?

I think the whole way society debates anything these days has been made automatically confrontational and many points made, on any side, are so out of context and ridiculous that the level of debate just gets worse. Twitter is a prime example.

I see the change startuing in the UK with Brexit ( whateer side you were on ) . We embraced outrage and fake information. The same happened in the US with Trump. Countries without similar triggers are not experiencing the same level of toxicity. Unlike the OP, I never lost any friends over Brexit and my peer group is pro trans in general. They are also comfortable asking me questions knowing I will give them my subjective opinion. Without the hostility from either side, the conversation is such we can disagree.

@OldCrone @ACovidofWitches

Of course, very happy to!

I wouldn’t call this one on ‘my side’ (in fact it’s written by a vocal GC feminist), but I think it very clearly and accurately dissects the relationship between biology, language and power. The point where I differ from the author (probably) is that I think the benefits of using gender neutral language in many cases outweighs the costs: www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2015/09/what-s-matter-talking-about-pregnant-people

This one is about gender neutral pronouns, which I realise is probably not a popular topic around these parts, but I think it’s a great article, and provides a lot of fascinating historical context about the way language (particularly in the law) has been used as a tool of oppression against women: www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v42/n13/amia-srinivasan/he-she-one-they-ho-hus-hum-ita?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.co.uk%2F

I’ll see if I can track down any of the ones that address the more concrete issues like refuges etc

I have a bunch of friends like this. Over time I’ve been more and more outspoken about it so unless one of them reports me to the thought police...

Unlike the OP, I never lost any friends over Brexit and my peer group is pro trans in general. They are also comfortable asking me questions knowing I will give them my subjective opinion. Without the hostility from either side, the conversation is such we can disagree.

I have actually maintained several friendships despite people having very different views on Brexit. I found it hard - two friends were very passionate Leavers and I felt their beliefs about the EU were wildly inaccurate. I disagreed with them very strongly. It wasn't challenging maintaining those friendships in the same way, interestingly enough. It was hard but it didn't cut this deep. And I think your set up sounds very healthy in that it should be possible to hold different views but one of my friends voiced the fact that blindly swallowing Janice Turner's 'inaccurate' article was depressing because Janice thinks women are special victims when it comes to domestic abuse and that isn't intersectional. Watching your very thoughtful, educated left-wing friend making sneering remarks about vulnerable women is extremely challenging.

@jj1968

“What's more likely - that an unconnected group of left wing, progressive, gender non-conforming, gay-rights supporting feminists, many of whom have spent their whole lives supporting and campaigning for the rights of women and girls, have suddenly, all at once, become right-wing, homophobic, pearl-clutching bigots. Or, could there just be a conflict of interest and a threat to the safety, dignity and fragile equality gains of women that we feel compelled to act, despite huge personal risk?”

That cuts both ways surely though. As in: “What's more likely - that an the majority of left wing, progressive, gender non-conforming, gay-rights supporting feminists, many of whom have spent their whole lives supporting and campaigning for the rights of women and girls, have suddenly, all at once, become raging misogynists, stupid and brainwashed. Or could it be that a moral panic has been engineered about a minority group based on hypothetical fears and misinformation which has led a small number of feminists to attack that group along with the religious right and so most feminists have felt the need to speak out in protection of trans people?"

@jj1968

Do you think women who don’t agree with your beliefs are “raging misogynists, stupid and brainwashed”?

Though if these women are small in number and yet have still somehow managed to “engineer” a “moral panic”, you have to admit that’s pretty impressive.

Thank you so much Helen, I will give those a read today.

Its a shame this thread has been diverted by the usual.

Massive empathy to you, OP and I totally get you.

I would urge you to talk to your friends individually. Soooo many people are getting it know - and I am seeing more and more people who are waking up to it.

A great friend and I discussed it about 5 years ago, we disagreed, and I felt very...awkward. Recently, she said she totally gets it and it feels great. Others have been getting it recently.

I went to a meeting of TWAW activists and GC women. I'm sorry to say the difference between the two groups in coherence and logic and thoughtfulness was even greater in RL than in SM. The TWAW whole argument was just a blustery: 'be nice' 'Transpeople get killed all the time'. The GC argument was about language, rights, sports and used real facts and figures. It made me more determined than ever that we are on the right side of this - and more and more people are growing to see it.

Patience and solidarity.

And it wouldn't take someone neutral long to find this out which is why reasonable people might think Turner is waging some kind of vendetta against trans people as the op's friends surmised.

My experience is the vast majority of women come to this debate from a neutral position. I know I did. I remember watching TransAmerica years ago. I was a young adult and felt such sympathy for vulnerable trans women and what they endure. If you had asked me, I'd have said of course they're women - if a trans woman wants to use the same bathroom as me/be on an all female ward in hospital/be in a woman's prison then of course she is very welcome. It doesn't harm me. I came across this debate on MN and remember actually internally recoiling in shock when someone wrote 'trans women are men.' It sounded so mean and ungenerous. I stuck around, I read a lot, I did a huge amount of thinking and I realised the argument here was solid and compassionate actually and rooted in the desire to protect and prioritise women. I've been watching things on here for years since then and I've seen other women go on that journey over and over.

We didn't all turn up here rolling our sleeves up, hating on trans people because it's just good sport and we're fundamentally not very nice people.

Thank you so much Helmet. It has really helped to post here.

Acovidofwitches is quite right about the majority of women being neutral when they arrive at this debate. In fact I was very much twaw. I have lots of trans friends and run around in lots of queer circles. But I'm a stickler for research. I couldn't NOT read everything around this subject when I first discovered there was "another way" if you like.

I spent hours on here, hours on trans forums, hours reading about the law and about neuroscience and about autism. It took years, genuinely years to take in all of the information but once you have its impossible to look past it.

Ironically lots of the people who are "supposed" to believe in it don't. Behind closed doors when we get back from whatever event or club night we've been at, lots of my friends acknowledge, it doesn't make sense, or that its homophobic or regressive. But we all know how important it is to say the right things or our jobs and reputations would be at risk.

@FamilyOfAliens

Do you think women who don’t agree with your beliefs are “raging misogynists, stupid and brainwashed”?

No, and neither do i believe they are right-wing, homophobic, pearl-clutching bigots as the quoted post suggested although perhaps there are those on the trans side who do think that - I think they are wrong. But equally it is often claimed that those who support trans inclusion are stupid, brainwashed and misogynist, and I rarely see that challenged.

Though if these women are small in number and yet have still somehow managed to “engineer” a “moral panic”, you have to admit that’s pretty impressive.

Not really, the moral panic has been engineered by the Tory press as they almost always are. That they can put a feminist spin on it in the hope of drawing some people away from feminism and into a moral panic about wokeness based on anti-trans scare-mongering and dubious claims of silencing is just the icing on the cake.

There is no moral panic, there are women standing up for their rights as a sex to be recognised.
And we've been standing up long before the Tory press started talking about it - and many Tories eg. Penny Mourdant, Crispin Blunt etc, are into gender theory AND many on the Left are not - so I don't know why you're pretending it's a left v right thing.
There is no "anti-trans scare-mongering" - there are women saying we want to keep women's spaces and sports and you're not compelling our speech.
And yes there is silencing - anyone with the remotest interest in the subject will see what has happened to women who have spoken out - and of course this filters down to silence other women.

I couldn't NOT read everything around this subject when I first discovered there was "another way" if you like.

Most people who get embroiled in conspiracy theories usually go in with a sceptical mind, and often with the intent to disprove them. Loads of otherwise highly intelligent left wing people got caught up in that stuff after 911. Lots of us lost more than one friend to the so called 911 truth movement. It's one of the reasons anti-semitism became problematic on the left.

Things can suck you in, even when you didn't intend them to. People who fall into conspiracy holes always begin by reading and reading some more, and though they may start off sceptical the avalanche of information - some true, some completely fabricated, some open to interpretation but interpreted solely one way - begins to overwhelm them. Perhaps it might even trigger unconscious prejudices, or meet some other emotional need. So they start to believe, slowly at first but usually reaching some kind of crescendo. And once they start talking to others who believe this too then it becomes powerfully reinforced as a foundational belief that usually manifests as a looming existential threat that must be countered at all costs.

Therefore when this belief is challenged it creates a huge amount of psychological distress - everything they have read and everyone they have spoken to for months has confirmed what they now 'know' to be true. There's no way they could have got this wrong, and they will often start to take on more and more extreme views rather than allow their beliefs to be undermined. So now there is an even greater conspiracy, anything that doesn't support their view is fake and fabricated by their all powerful foe. Friends that don't agree are brainwashed, or terrified to speak out, or in this case secretly hate women or have internalised misogyny. Research is fixed, testimony is lies, social attitudes the result of a sinister plot. Everything is a plot now, twitter is even hiding likes from tweets. This is cognitive dissonance in action, and that initial crescendo keeps happening, over and over again, there is always more to unravel, always more to read. Every new 'fact' in support of their ideology causes a dopamine rush - it's just more proof they are right. It's addictive.

Which is why they slowly drift away from friends and into circles where everyone shares their views. It's much easier that way, and those in their new circle will encourage it, often aggresively, by dismissing the unbelievers as sheeples, or woke. And what they can't see is that those they left behind are still the same thoughtful, intelligent, sensitive people they always were, who are worried about them and wish they would come back to them.

I love you jj1968

:) JJ, The way you and other TRA's come to MN to constantly tell women they are hysterical, their concerns are trivial, that they are a tiny minority of women, that most other feminists are better than them...And now with the conspiracy theory bit. Bravo.

It really has been an absolute beautiful master-class in male privilege and entitlement - I don't think I would have believed this was what Trans right activism was if I hadn't read your repeated posts here - I must say a big thank you to you, because they have made a big impression on me - and have absolutely made me more determined than ever to stand up for women's rights.

Therefore when this belief is challenged it creates a huge amount of psychological distress - everything they have read and everyone they have spoken to for months has confirmed what they now 'know' to be true. There's no way they could have got this wrong, and they will often start to take on more and more extreme views rather than allow their beliefs to be undermined.

Hang on, serious question here, not being sarky. Is that why people say that it's literally possible to change sex now?

No-one ever used to say that, and now they do.

Except the belief you're talking about jj is that i have a female reproductive system. That's not really a conspiracy theory.

@PermanentTemporary

Except the belief you're talking about jj is that i have a female reproductive system. That's not really a conspiracy theory.

No it's not, but that's not where it ends is it? Conspiratorial beliefs are often based on inarguable realities - the world is riddled with war, corruption and inequality and there are indeed individuals with great power over the lives of others. Sometimes they even conspire. These are facts, essential facts to conspiracy theories, if everything was wonderful and all people free and equal then there would be little space for such theories to flourish. Knowing you have a female reproductive system has nothing to do with thinking twitter is hiding likes from tweets or that growing social acceptence of trans people is due to institutions being 'captured' by Stonewall as part of some insidious plot to destroy women's rights.