My friendships

[ACovidofWitches]

I have a close group of friends I've know for about 10 years. These are really clever, thoughtful people in their 40's. Two have a disability. Two have experienced domestic abuse that I know of. One experienced sexual abuse as a child (again it could be more than one)

Anyway, one posted on FB today about Janice Turner's latest article - and it turns out they all think she's awful. I had an inkling they didn't share my gender critical views but it's all coming out now. They think Janice has an agenda (that she's targeting vulnerable trans women in the way black women have been targeted by racists because it's a kind of sport, I suppose). They think transwomen experience the highest degree of abuse that any women experience and it's outrageous anyone could try to bar them from refuges. They are such clever people - how can they not see how many women have been murdered in the last year just for starters? They think women supporting Janice are doing terrible harm because if we would only let a tiny minority of trans women in our refuges, we could use our time and energy more wisely and actually achieve something useful.

Not one of these women has ever used a refuge or been in prison or hospital where they have felt incredibly vulnerable (none has children, so they haven't even been in hospital to give birth, for example). I have, in fact, been in one of those (it's the internet, I'm going to choose not to disclose more details) and I can say from horrible lived experience that single-sex provisions matter very profoundly.

I can't continue with these friendships. I believe very strongly in having a wide mix of friends with different beliefs. But I'm sitting here feeling so angry and sad that women could harm their own interests like this. They think their position is a kind one. They think they are being inclusive. I'm so upset, I didn't know what else to do but post here where people understand. I envy those of you who have friends who are on the same page. I hadn't realised these people I respected so much think so differently to me.

@FamilyOfAliens

It’s just as bad when the person who has completely drunk the Kool-Aid is your own daughter

Yes. Mine, too.

Commiserations, JellySlice.

Guess you’re a terf too?

No, I'm a TWERF.

💪

@FamilyOfAliens

It’s just as bad when the person who has completely drunk the Kool-Aid is your own daughter

That must hurt so much. I'm sorry.

I am going to sleep on it. I would dearly love to message a couple of them and try some of the suggestions on here. You know what, though, these people aren't going to change their minds I don't think. One of them in particular knows my thoughts (in detail) but she has spent a year letting me tell her how I feel without disclosing the fact she is on completely the other side of the debate. That was cowardly of her and she has really shocked me today. I think of people who believe similar things like 5G conspiracy theories don't like being told they're wrong. My friends are clever enough I guess they're used to believing they're in the right on anything they consider (Brexit etc), because they give things so much thought. So I think it would provoke a row if I talked to them, I'd feel very shaken up and not one person would change their minds. My energy is better spent on more productive things and on people who just get it. There is this fabulous children's author on Twitter today being very bravely gender critical and I was so grateful to see her posts - there are so many other people in the world who do really get this issue. We are the majority, really.

It's different when it's your child, in your house. I'm not nearly so upfront with her. But I drip drip drip the reality of female biology and how it affects our lives. And if she overhears me talking to her dad about something like the banker I referred to earlier... so be it. But I deliberately do not discuss anything in her hearing that would trigger hostility or distressing cognitive dissonance.

With people that I only communicate with by SM, and with colleagues, I speak differently. I'm not as invested in their well-being and their futures as I am with my dd. I don't mind if they find this issue upsetting.

DD doesn’t live with us full time and I’m not on social media so I don’t see what she posts. I just know that she doesn’t want to talk about it with me because she doesn’t see why it’s even an issue - in her mind, TWAW and there is no conversation or discussion to be had about that. I’m often reminded of a post I read on here as it sums up exactly how I feel about this. I have changed it slightly to reflect my specific situation:

“What's more likely - that an unconnected group of left wing, progressive, gender non-conforming, gay-rights supporting feminists, many of whom have spent their whole lives supporting and campaigning for the rights of women and girls, have suddenly, all at once, become right-wing, homophobic, pearl-clutching bigots. Or, could there just be a conflict of interest and a threat to the safety, dignity and fragile equality gains of women that we feel compelled to act, despite huge personal risk?”

That is a really good quote - thank you

@IAmFleshIAmBone

I have a family member who works as a mental health nurse. Her attitude to letting men onto female wards because they identify as women shocked me. As someone who has been on a mental health ward more than once, for her to dismiss my feelings of vulnerability as 'transphobia' was really hurtful. I know where you're coming from OP. I can't see her in the same light anymore, and maybe I should try to talk to her about it but for a woman to just automatically throw us all under the bus like that is quite shocking. Her words were "I'm not prepared to put her through the trauma of being on a male ward"

It’s because I worked in acute adult psychiatry that I think wards should be sex-segregated, especially as placing 16 year olds in adult wards was sadly, not a rare event.

OP, have you tried “I just don’t understand what people mean when they say, ‘I feel like a woman’. I’ve read blogs and literature and all I see are the sex stereotypes we’ve been trying to erase”?

I wouldn't have these conversations by text or Facebook. Wait until you see one of them face to face and see if it comes up, or gently introduce it. I think the point made above is pretty much where I start. Why are lots of intelligent, reasonable people saying that there are conflicts of interest here?
It's such a large and nuanced topic that you can't have a single conversation either.
I think the issues around children and transition are one - which is reasonably easy to talk about now, as it has been in the news a lot recently and even the clinic that treats children has published a report confirming that there is no psychological advantage in taking puberty blockers. There are lots of known side effects which are harmful, that is not denied and is public knowledge. Girls in particular are better off going through puberty before transitioning as an adult and will pass well if that is their intention.
The court has decided that children cannot give adequate consent to this treatment - which can result in reduced IQ, diminished stature, reduced bone density, loss of sexual function as an adult and infertility.
I'd be slightly wary of using some of the outliers of this situation but instead reflect on the kind of situation that will arise with lack of safe guarding and gatekeeping. Why do we seperate men and women in places where women are vulnerable? Historically women have been excluded from many aspects of society for this reason - toilets are always dragged into this argument and trivialised, but the lack of single sex facilities will see some women once again excluded.

The nub of this issue is not trans, it's men. If you think unscrupulous men will not take advantage of lax gatekeeping (prisons, refuges, etc) then you are deeply naive.
Is it fair in sport? Some sports are segregated by sex for fairness. Elite sportswomen in some sports would still be beaten by a decent male amateur. Tinkering with testosterone levels won't change that. The evidence is there now.
But what about transpeople? I think there is huge reputational risk from 'bad apples' for example, some of the more shocking examples of men convicted of rape in women's prisons - are they even trans or not? (Which goes back to my point that this is about women's safety, dignity and rights for me and how they are vulnerable around some men).
Transpeople need a safe space too, but it's way too simplistic to simply say to women 'budge up'. This puts women at a massive disadvantage.
I think the Staniland question is good and I would follow it by saying and do you think women have a right to say no? If you're friends think that women have no agency, no right to say no, then you may be right in them being a lost cause. I'm not big on mantras but I do quite like 'my rights are not yours to give away'.

I think the fact that none of them has children explains a lot. Not saying this to annoy the childless posters on here but few experiences demonstrate the reality of sex as effectively as being pregnant and giving birth

Honestly this type of generalising is always going to annoy the childless. I have a large mix of childless/childfree friends and they have various views on this issue. My SiL (who has x2 teen girls) recently referred to people like me as bigots (she didn’t know my opinion on the issue when she said it).

I don’t need to have been pregnant to know that people cannot change sex.

Perhaps it has more to do with group dynamics and group think. People being too scared to express themselves openly in front of a group of friends? Especially in liberal circles where people have been so brainwashed into thinking that any criticism of trans ideology is the same as being homophobic.

@ACovidofWitches

I have a close group of friends I've know for about 10 years. These are really clever, thoughtful people in their 40's. Two have a disability. Two have experienced domestic abuse that I know of. One experienced sexual abuse as a child (again it could be more than one)

Anyway, one posted on FB today about Janice Turner's latest article - and it turns out they all think she's awful. I had an inkling they didn't share my gender critical views but it's all coming out now. They think Janice has an agenda (that she's targeting vulnerable trans women in the way black women have been targeted by racists because it's a kind of sport, I suppose). They think transwomen experience the highest degree of abuse that any women experience and it's outrageous anyone could try to bar them from refuges. They are such clever people - how can they not see how many women have been murdered in the last year just for starters? They think women supporting Janice are doing terrible harm because if we would only let a tiny minority of trans women in our refuges, we could use our time and energy more wisely and actually achieve something useful.

Not one of these women has ever used a refuge or been in prison or hospital where they have felt incredibly vulnerable (none has children, so they haven't even been in hospital to give birth, for example). I have, in fact, been in one of those (it's the internet, I'm going to choose not to disclose more details) and I can say from horrible lived experience that single-sex provisions matter very profoundly.

I can't continue with these friendships. I believe very strongly in having a wide mix of friends with different beliefs. But I'm sitting here feeling so angry and sad that women could harm their own interests like this. They think their position is a kind one. They think they are being inclusive. I'm so upset, I didn't know what else to do but post here where people understand. I envy those of you who have friends who are on the same page. I hadn't realised these people I respected so much think so differently to me.

Or...perhaps reflect on why you are the odd one out? But yes, if you dont align with them, end the friendships. Personally I like friends with a wide array of views - challenges my thinking and perceptions with others experience. Trouble with some of the threads here and internet algorithms in general - is it creates and amplifies an echo chamber.

It’s because I worked in acute adult psychiatry that I think wards should be sex-segregated, especially as placing 16 year olds in adult wards was sadly, not a rare event.

There's a reason some wards are known as a predator's playground, all too sadly.

I share your views on this issue ACovid and I have plenty of friends who don’t. I do not get into with them.

Personally in the case of my friends specifically I don’t believe they have really engaged with the issue. They have taken in the “be kind” message but they simply have not thought through the consequences of what they are saying. I try to always remember that there are probably a billion issues I don’t engage in properly and even sometimes have a completely naïve opinion on, so I don’t judge others for that.

Obviously I do find it really frustrating when people who clearly haven’t thought about an issue declare an authoritative value judgement on something they have no clue about - who wouldn’t?? but if they aren’t interested in learning about the nuances of the topic then so be it. It is hugely frustrating to try to teach someone who does not wish to learn - for both the student and the teacher, ask any secondary school teacher.

I think it is worth having a look at the alignment overall on values and beliefs and genuinely if your friends make you feel better or worse in yourself rather than getting bogged down in expecting them to agree with your opinions.

I think it would be a shame to lose your friends over this. I think they are genuine in their beliefs and not trying to harm anyone. Many of my friends are the same (some have kids, some not).

Honestly, if I didn't read this board I think I would agree with your friends. There is just nothing on it in the mainstream centre/left media.

In fact I do sometimes still question where I stand on it. A few years ago, when "transwoman" was a rare concept and generally meant someone with severe dysphoria who had undergone medical transition, I would have said they were probably okay to be in women's spaces. I think the widening of "trans", and the message that anyone can be in a women's space if they just say they are a woman, has made this a much more difficult issue. But I think a lot of people are not very aware of this change in meaning.

Certainly when I first heard, a few years ago, of Germaine Greer speak on this issue, I thought she was being rather pedantic and mean to a minority group that had a tough time and were unlikely to be of any harm to anyone. Your friends likely think the same about Janice Turner.

I'm not saying I agree with them, but I have sympathy with this view point.

I wonder if they really have read widely, ACovidofWitches. Because there is no evidence for those claims of most vulnerable. And those making that claim tend not to know that this isn't about protecting the homosexual transsexuals for whom the Gender Recognition Act was written.

And yes, I do think that it is possible to stay friends with people who disagree with me on this or any other issue. Yes, it does hurt when it's something you feel very strongly about and yes, on occasion I have left a friend's house rather than have an argument, but that's a decision you must make for yourself. It's important to practice good self-care and it might be worth acknowledging your hurt and disappointment right now without making immediate decisions to rescind your friendship.

Especially in liberal circles where people have been so brainwashed into thinking that any criticism of trans ideology is the same as being homophobic

This is it exactly. We probably have to recognise how very successful the TRA campaign has been by abandoning any attempts to argue the case rationally but instead just going for an all-out psychological war.

One of the difficulties of combating it is we're not sure what works most effectively against it. Do we try psychological warfare of our own? Or do we keep plugging away on facts and reason. There's no easy answer.

One of the difficulties of combating it is we're not sure what works most effectively against it. Do we try psychological warfare of our own? Or do we keep plugging away on facts and reason

If you think in terms of conspiracy theorists there seems to be much evidence to support the idea that using facts and reason to challenge these ideas is not effective but appealing to emotion and not alienating people i.e. looking at it from the perspective of where you agree rather than disagree has the most impact in changing hearts and minds. Facts and figures and reason alienates people.

Of course it is utterly frustrating when people will use emotional and psychological barriers (denial) to accepting truths that are uncomfortable for them but it does seem that addressing them with reason alienates.

DisappearingGirl
Certainly when I first heard, a few years ago, of Germaine Greer speak on this issue, I thought she was being rather pedantic and mean to a minority group that had a tough time and were unlikely to be of any harm to anyone. Your friends likely think the same about Janice Turner.

That's exactly the reaction my friend had to Germaine Greer. I was a fan of hers so I looked more closely and understood what she was talking about. I think we have to understand that when we talk about this people assume trans are old style homosexual transsexuals who have had or planning to have surgery. They are not thinking Karen White. They believe trans rights are like gay rights and from that perspective we seem kinda mean. There is a definite resistance to accept the reality of what we are saying, some cannot get their head around it but others are appalled when the penny drops. JKR really helped as she is seen as a left wing philanthropist and people are surprised that she is suddenly a bigot. It gets them to engage their brains! So I think persuasion has to be gradual and continuous. No one likes or will readily admit they've been massively wrong but eventually that Dascian moment will arrive

@fondestmemories

One of the difficulties of combating it is we're not sure what works most effectively against it. Do we try psychological warfare of our own? Or do we keep plugging away on facts and reason

If you think in terms of conspiracy theorists there seems to be much evidence to support the idea that using facts and reason to challenge these ideas is not effective but appealing to emotion and not alienating people i.e. looking at it from the perspective of where you agree rather than disagree has the most impact in changing hearts and minds. Facts and figures and reason alienates people.

Of course it is utterly frustrating when people will use emotional and psychological barriers (denial) to accepting truths that are uncomfortable for them but it does seem that addressing them with reason alienates.

One risk for the other side is that they're just pushing it so far. If you look at the responses to Stonewall's ludicrous attempt to present "aromantics" as a persecuted minority it does suggest that they are pushing hard at the limits.

twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1363843446616719363?lang=en

@HPTA the thing about debate though and I lived through some seriously acrimonious debates here in Ireland divorce, abortion.

You are never speaking to the other side. They are completely entrenched in their view, you are only ever speaking to those in the middle ground whose views are possible to influence.

That is the real problem with social media, non moderated debates between 2 polarised perspectives means that meaningful debate is absolutely impossible.

I think I managed to change someone's mind yesterday, at least a little enough for her to look further...
I was visiting the home of a man bit older than me, someone in quieter times might have been labelled a 'curmudgeon'. But he gets it. He's an old lefty who absolutely hates the erasure of free speech and has pretty much made his place an area where anyone can speak their mind . I was sitting around some lovely cashew chocolates with him and an older lady whom he has been friends with for years. Somehow we got into politics and I mentioned the Rand Paul thing, how I was amazed that I agreed with him on that. He jumped right in: "I saw that deer-in-the -headlights look on the other guy's face..." and our companion had a pained expression. "How can you say that? Eww Rand Paul." We explained the situation. That that candidate was someone who had been giving children puberty blockers and was in the pocket of big pharma. She then countered with the usual "Equal rights, live and let live something something," then he said, "This is Eugenics." She popped to attention,"How?" I explained about the numbers of gay and autistic children being experimented on, gave numbers, etc. She kept saying, "I haven't heard this, OMG, I never heard any of this stuff before."

I don't think I could have reached her had the convo not gone to children. She has been a teacher. It reached to that level where the protective urge set in. I don't know your friends, but maybe if you can approach them in a way that will make them understand that this is larger than their own feelings and the welfare of others, ones they care about are at stake.

It's a hard call, and I am embarrassed today because I got a bit strident, but whatever. We are still all friends and going to do something next week.

I wish you luck. I have been lucky to find this peer group of people older than me right now. They are keeping me sane.

“What's more likely - that an unconnected group of left wing, progressive, gender non-conforming, gay-rights supporting feminists, many of whom have spent their whole lives supporting and campaigning for the rights of women and girls, have suddenly, all at once, become right-wing, homophobic, pearl-clutching bigots. Or, could there just be a conflict of interest and a threat to the safety, dignity and fragile equality gains of women that we feel compelled to act, despite huge personal risk?”

That cuts both ways surely though. As in: “What's more likely - that an the majority of left wing, progressive, gender non-conforming, gay-rights supporting feminists, many of whom have spent their whole lives supporting and campaigning for the rights of women and girls, have suddenly, all at once, become raging misogynists, stupid and brainwashed. Or could it be that a moral panic has been engineered about a minority group based on hypothetical fears and misinformation which has led a small number of feminists to attack that group along with the religious right and so most feminists have felt the need to speak out in protection of trans people?"

@jj1968

“What's more likely - that an unconnected group of left wing, progressive, gender non-conforming, gay-rights supporting feminists, many of whom have spent their whole lives supporting and campaigning for the rights of women and girls, have suddenly, all at once, become right-wing, homophobic, pearl-clutching bigots. Or, could there just be a conflict of interest and a threat to the safety, dignity and fragile equality gains of women that we feel compelled to act, despite huge personal risk?”

That cuts both ways surely though. As in: “What's more likely - that an the majority of left wing, progressive, gender non-conforming, gay-rights supporting feminists, many of whom have spent their whole lives supporting and campaigning for the rights of women and girls, have suddenly, all at once, become raging misogynists, stupid and brainwashed. Or could it be that a moral panic has been engineered about a minority group based on hypothetical fears and misinformation which has led a small number of feminists to attack that group along with the religious right and so most feminists have felt the need to speak out in protection of trans people?"

I don't think the trans-allies are the same people who used to support gay rights though. They seem to be mostly under-25 and with notably poorer debate skills than experienced allies of the gay rights movement have. I say that because their arguments seem to consist of 'no debate!', 'bigot', repeating the TWAW mantra and so on. I doubt any of them could make a convincing argument for the legalisation of same-sex marriage if I gave them a list of links and bribed them to get it done with an Amazon voucher.

Although, tbh, with some of them, a Smiggle voucher might be more appropriate as an incentive.

The fears aren't misplaced no matter how many times you say it or outright ignore the evidence. And it's not a small number of feminists. It's the majority.