An inclusive way to be gender critical?

[pensivepigeon]

My thoughts on gender and sex are thus:

Gender is a social construct. It is how society and individuals view the presentation of the sexes - in fashion, interests and work roles. Whereas sex is biological, we cannot change it even though we might surgically change our appearance and take artificial hormones which affect our bodily functions.

However because gender is a social construct and we are part of society we can define it. I define gender as

Female = adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.
Male= adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.

If everyone took this on board it would mean safe single sex spaces could be preserved, as people could present themselves however they want, wear what they want but use the single sex space appropriate for their sex without conflict. Uniforms would offer everyone both traditional female and male options which either sex could wear. Ditto with sports, competing takes place within the appropriate sex classes but competitors can wear either the traditional male or female competition uniforms. There would be no confusion and need to agonise over language when providing medical care.

Taking this stance stance means I have no problem when it comes to saying I am of female sex with a female gender.

So am I gender critical? Is this inclusive?

@pensivepigeon I disagree. We currently hear constantly about celebrating gender diversity, and it is always tied to trans. It's always part of LGBT. It creates a world of ever-narrower labels and a focus on external presentation. It is given so much importance and airtime that people increasingly consider it more salient than sex itself. I agree, you would think that decoupling it from sex would allow people to see them as clearly distinct and be able to appreciate the need for sex-based protections. But in practice, the idea of celebrating gender diversity is nowadays used to muddy the waters and prove a point about everything being on a spectrum and all divisions being meaningless bigotry. As soon as you say "but sex is still real, right?" you get a tidal wave of sophistry telling you that sex itself is on a spectrum.

That is one reason why I think we need to dial back the focus on gender, not increase it.

@pensivepigeon

Let me ask you this Floisme, if gender diversity is the norm what will trans people be transitioning from and to?

This question is a very good one, and tends to get answered by today's trans people as "ah, but gender identity is nothing to do with stereotypes or presentation!". We are still none the wiser as to what it is supposed to be. However, we do have plenty of information about co-morbidities and social factors that are more enlightening.

I should have said TRAs, not necessarily trans people.

@pensivepigeon

So what do you actually propose? Currently any statement of fact regarding sex as a binary (to take one example) is branded as transphobia. Where are you suggestion the concessions are made?

Branded by whom though? I wold think a lot of moderate people acknowledge biological sex and the importance of protected characteristic status for women. The concessions are simply made by allowing and even celebrating gender diversity. The more the diverse and fluid nature of gender is accepted then the more gender as a concept becomes meaningless, fragmented and less talked about. There will be no non conformity when there are no norms to conform to.

Which is what I said above that I thought you meant 🤔

But this is the bit I don’t understand:

There is discussion going on currently regarding gender because for whatever reason people want it. To just say they need to stop 'navel gazing' and that gender shouldn't matter to them because it is cultural just disengages from them....However, apart from the TRAs, there is a huge moderate majority who are talking about this and who want to be inclusive to different forms of gender expression

But nothing is currently stopping people being inclusive of ‘gender expression’, is it? Indeed, GC people are probably near the top of the range of acceptance of gender expression. I personally don’t give a shit if a man wears a dress, make up, or whatever. Does no-one remember the 1980s? It’s not GC people who’ve turned the clock back to the 1950s by deifying stereotypes. It’s TRAs. Them and Tumblr teen girls in the US mainly who seem to think wearing ‘a man’s shirt’ makes them NB.

Yes, there are some people around who would sneer at a man wearing lipstick but they’re not sneering because we’re not discussing gender with them. They’re showing their innate prejudices.

Promoting gender expression by having inclusive discussions about it, only embeds these prejudices more IMO because it makes out that a girl wearing a ‘boy’s shirt’ is somehow different and needs a different, special label because well, hey don’t they know it’s a boy’s shirt? and wow, they’re a girl so ooh, that can’t be right blah blah.

We don’t need gender (the middle-man, as I called it above). All we need to do is emphasise that both sexes can wear what they want, do what they want, be brave, cry, etc, and not have boys toys, girls clothes, etc.

That is one reason why I think we need to dial back the focus on gender, not increase it.

I see your point however I think if this 'dialling back' is done too forcibly then it draws the focus right back on to gender diversity and why it is not being celebrated. So celebrate it in a half hearted manner.

trans people as "ah, but gender identity is nothing to do with stereotypes or presentation!".

Oh, that is quite telling. It would appear the people doing this are simply desperately seeking and struggling to be non conformist and rebel within a society which is increasingly non conformist anyway. By being aggressive, though, we provide them with an enemy and further their cause by progressing their victim rhetoric - which is what they want. But TRAs are not the majority, I don't believe, thankfully.

Thank you for engaging, op but you will not be dragging me any further into your thread. I have had no idea from the beginning what point you were making but hung around in case my comprehension skills were at fault. But now we've moved on to scoldings, sarcasm and smileys so I guess there's no illumination coming is there? No worries.

But gender diversity is ‘the norm, we just don’t believe it has anything to do with sex...... I’m finding it really confusing trying to understand what you are getting at, sorry OP!

Why do you think gender critical feminists rejecting gender is aggressive?

I think the bit you're missing is in here...

There would be no perceived need for single sex based rights to be eroded if society really accepted the real fluidity of gender as a social and cultural concept along with the binary nature of sex in human beings,

If I am transgender woman, then I may believe I was born in the wrong body. I believe a genetic issue occurred that caused this mismatch between Mind and body. My gender is not fluid. I want my body to look and feel female. I deserve to live and experience life as a female. And society has to help make that happen as it is a human right to live how I want to live. That means letting me into your segregated spaces.

And that means a loss of sex based rights.

Sex based rights aren't needed because of transgender folk. They're needed because of men - which includes transgender women., whether the want it to or not.

But now we've moved on to scoldings, sarcasm and smileys so I guess there's no illumination coming is there? No worries.

If that's the level of conversation you bring Floisme, feel free to disengage. Meanwhile, I have enjoyed reading more constructive comments and would welcome reading any from you.

(just put that there because of your emoji luurve)

Branded by whom though?

Well for a start charities who lobby and provide training. Stonewall provides a lot of the training for our institutions and schools and talks about sex being "assigned at birth". Mermaids also provides "diversity training". You can see what they believe about gender and sex if you look at their websites - and a lot of it is not compatible with what you suggest. If you want a more moderate tone to the debate perhaps you should start by campaigning for a more science-based approach to sex education and the upholding of sex rather than gender as a protected characteristic while celebrating differences in gender expression and personality? (Clue: this is what feminists are already doing!)

If I am transgender woman, then I may believe I was born in the wrong body. I believe a genetic issue occurred that caused this mismatch between Mind and body. My gender is not fluid. I want my body to look and feel female. I deserve to live and experience life as a female. And society has to help make that happen as it is a human right to live how I want to live. That means letting me into your segregated spaces.

Oh, I would have understood that as body dysmorphia not transgender. Is this not the case?

The i word has gone from a feelgood well-meaning word to an exhausted cliché to a weasel word. Shudder. And then there are the made-up definitions of words and the celebrate the g d word. We can't go on like this.

Oh my....what do you think transgender means?

Oh my....what do you think transgender means?

Someone who does not believe they conform to gender norms, as they perceive them and starts to express/present themselves according to how they feel.

Someone who does not believe they conform to gender norms, as they perceive them and starts to express/present themselves according to how they feel.

That's....sort of everyone though, isn't it?

@Gerla

Arguing with them too aggressively, (even if it is only hyperbole) will only serve to make them feel demonised and turn them away from the gender critical cause.

So what do you actually propose? Currently any statement of fact regarding sex as a binary (to take one example) is branded as transphobia. Where are you suggestion the concessions are made?

Depends who you're talking to. My eldest DS is very pro genders and there being many many of them but still asserts that there are only two sexes and people can't change sex. This is a teenager with a trans partner (they were female, then non binary, now identify as male which means DS has to be bisexual!) and a lot of gender identifying friends. He doesn't agree with men in women's prisons or sports etc as that's sex but is fully on board with gender. As much as I assert that I do not believe in gender identities and consider the whole ideology akin to religion. My sister is now a trans man on testosterone and planning a mastectomy, but they would still agree that they won't actually be changing sex, only alleviating their dysphoria (not that I think that will work).

The part I struggle with, as comes up here a lot, is that all of these people I know can only define their gender using stereotypes yet will assert that there's more to it that I cannot possibly understand because I don't have a gender identity that differs from my sex. My sister was bragging about 'learning man stuff' because their landlord was teaching them to change a tyre and erect a shed. I was appalled as I can do both these things and try to raise my children to see that there are no Man jobs and Woman jobs. It just feels really regressive.

@Gerla

Someone who does not believe they conform to gender norms, as they perceive them and starts to express/present themselves according to how they feel.

That's....sort of everyone though, isn't it?

Yes.

However, unless you conform to the restrictions of a label these days, you cease to exist

@Gerla

Someone who does not believe they conform to gender norms, as they perceive them and starts to express/present themselves according to how they feel.

That's....sort of everyone though, isn't it?

Maybe not, but it certainly should be! Which is why the whole gender ideology frustrates me so much.

This is how Stonewall defines transgender woman:

A term used to describe someone who is assigned male at birth but identifies and lives as a woman.

This is problematic for feminists (and not just feminists!) "Assigned male at birth" suggests that sex is not a scientific fact - it can be assigned - and thus also wrongly assigned (and so changed). "Identifies and lives as a woman" - how can you describe what it means to live as a woman without falling back onto stereotypes. Women (and men!) are incredibly diverse. What we have in common is our biology - everything else is personality.

If we can't abolish gender altogether because people have constructed an identity around them, perhaps there should be a protected characteristic of "non conformity with stereotypes associated with biological sex"

It just feels really regressive.

It IS really regressive.

Maybe not, but it certainly should be!
The thing is even if you feel that you are conforming to gender norms, you are not conforming to all gender norms in all places at all times. I was reading a magazine from the 1890s and there was a lot of discussion over whether it was acceptable for female Sunday school teachers to ride a bike to church. (It wasn't). So if I disagreed with that in 1890 I wouldn't be conforming whereas now I doubt whether anybody would have a problem with it. That's why it doesn't make a lot of sense to say that conforming to gender roles (or being cis - which I know some people would say is more complicated than that but it's never clear how) is part of your identity.

By the way, that's a lot of gender-related issues to cope with Ragz!

@pensivepigeon

If I am transgender woman, then I may believe I was born in the wrong body. I believe a genetic issue occurred that caused this mismatch between Mind and body. My gender is not fluid. I want my body to look and feel female. I deserve to live and experience life as a female. And society has to help make that happen as it is a human right to live how I want to live. That means letting me into your segregated spaces.

Oh, I would have understood that as body dysmorphia not transgender. Is this not the case?

If you say that is body dysmorphia then Stonewall, Mermaids, many politicians, many organisations, many celebrities - in other words a whole lot of people with very loud powerful voices will call you transphobic and people have lost their jobs, safety and ability to speak freely for saying similar. I'm afraid you're about 10 years behind what's been creeping in - this is why we're saying there's no middle ground, it's already been taken.

We're at the point now where if you believe sex cannot be changed you're in for a fight whether you want one or not. Even some schools are changing their education now, not just thinking about it, to say it's ok to change SEX. That's why we're not seeing it as a gentle debate.

If everyone took this on board it would mean safe single sex spaces could be preserved, as people could present themselves however they want, wear what they want but use the single sex space appropriate for their sex without conflict.

Why? I don't understand how this helps. People can dress how they like already. The trans lobby isn't fighting for the right for transwomen to dress as women but continue to use men's facilities. That's not what they want.

@Gerla flowers appreciated, thanks. It's especially difficult watching my sister go through this and trying to 'be kind' and maintain a relationship while also being really sad for them and feeling like all their serious mental health issues are being pushed aside in favour of this magic identity that will fix everything. Our cousin is also a trans man and while apparently happier now it doesn't seem to have fixed their many other issues. Sigh...

Anyway, sorry to derail the thread there and yes I agree but many people if you asked them would if they are gender conforming would actually say either yes or 'err, what?'.
Apart from the younger generation (including my sister in that as there's a big age gap) most of my friends aren't really interested and glaze over when I start ranting about gender. Or laugh, like I'm being funny. Mumsnet is where I come for actual discussion as many people really aren't that bothered about women's rights and aren't aware of the huge rise in young women trying to identify out of womanhood. I work with Doctors and one was surprised when I pointed out the rise in trans teenage girls as being a huge recent phenomenon (when we were discussing a patient) and hadn't heard of ROGD. This is a GP. This is stuff isn't as mainstream as we think, IMO.