An inclusive way to be gender critical?

[pensivepigeon]

My thoughts on gender and sex are thus:

Gender is a social construct. It is how society and individuals view the presentation of the sexes - in fashion, interests and work roles. Whereas sex is biological, we cannot change it even though we might surgically change our appearance and take artificial hormones which affect our bodily functions.

However because gender is a social construct and we are part of society we can define it. I define gender as

Female = adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.
Male= adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.

If everyone took this on board it would mean safe single sex spaces could be preserved, as people could present themselves however they want, wear what they want but use the single sex space appropriate for their sex without conflict. Uniforms would offer everyone both traditional female and male options which either sex could wear. Ditto with sports, competing takes place within the appropriate sex classes but competitors can wear either the traditional male or female competition uniforms. There would be no confusion and need to agonise over language when providing medical care.

Taking this stance stance means I have no problem when it comes to saying I am of female sex with a female gender.

So am I gender critical? Is this inclusive?

You misrepresent my posts @RedToothBrush. If you read them carefully you will see that's not what ii am saying.

Broadening stereotypes out so wide that every multiple gender expression is seen as normative for either sex, whilst recognising stereotypes exist as a cultural phenomenon, means no stereotypes is pushed upon anyone. However, conversation is not shut down or silenced. No one is made to feel stupid or weird for liking or identifying with a particular stereotype.

Because if there is anything than fans the flames of any type of activism it is controversy and people's perceptions of oppression and injustice. People love a bit of sensationalism!

I

Also, using words such as 'transphobic' is water off a duck's back. All it seems to mean is a refusal to go along with a certain narrative and set of proposals one disagrees with. Same with bigot. It is all so tiresome.

@DadJoke I think you’ve got your statistics wrong poppet, most people in the U.K. are ignorant of the status of trans rights and generally don’t give a fig. Trans rights activists within the U.K. care about trans rights and are actively seeking to erode women’s rights - have you really never taken a look at the statistics of trans women attacking and sexually assaulting women within the U.K.? Has your research not yet led you to uncover the numerous stories about what is happening to women at the hands of trans women in refuges and jails? Go educate yourself a bit instead of making such stupid sweeping statements.

Also, you are speaking to women. Gender critical feminists are largely women (though I do apologise to any gender critical men taking part of the debate, generally it’s women here on the FWR boards!)

No you can not change sex.
No transwomen are not women.
No we do not believe in gender stereotypes.
No we do not advocate and will not support ideology which promotes body dysmorphia and the unnecessary medicalisation of healthy individuals. Especially when they are disproportionately vulnerable groups such as children, lesbians and people who are autistic.

And I agree with all of this apart from I maintain stereotypes exist as a cultural phenomenon which people might or might not identify with wholly or partially. I think it is very unwise not to recognise the power cultural phenomenons have over the way we think and in turn affect the world around us.

@pensivepigeon

You misrepresent my posts @RedToothBrush. If you read them carefully you will see that's not what ii am saying.

Broadening stereotypes out so wide that every multiple gender expression is seen as normative for either sex, whilst recognising stereotypes exist as a cultural phenomenon, means no stereotypes is pushed upon anyone. However, conversation is not shut down or silenced. No one is made to feel stupid or weird for liking or identifying with a particular stereotype.

Because if there is anything than fans the flames of any type of activism it is controversy and people's perceptions of oppression and injustice. People love a bit of sensationalism!

No.

No again.

I am not misrepresenting anything.

I am spelling out what you are saying bluntly.

You can not have 'inclusive' gender identity when the entire premise of gender identity is based on gender stereotypes which exclude women in society.

You can say whatever you like and argue it til you are blue in the face but that truth remains.

You can not get away from the circular argument of gender identity and describe it without using gender stereotypes.

It is impossible.

Why?

Because gender identity is the reinforcement of gender stereotypes.

When ideolgy dominates over science and research you have a problem. It is a pattern which is always regressive in practice and has a dark history.

But it will always play apart because science doesn't occur within a vacuum. It is carried out by people who are subject to ideologies. What I am suggesting is akin to discussion of all the priors and biases, declaring them to be laid out alongside the research for reference in the hope they are kept separate from the actual research.

Has your research not yet led you to uncover the numerous stories about what is happening to women

Judicial Review challenging MoJ going on today and tomorrow in fact, where a female prisoner is alleging she was sexually assaulted by an MTF GRC holder in prison when this person was placed in the female estate.

Because gender identity is the reinforcement of gender stereotypes.

It doesn't matter if those gender stereotypes are expanded out so much their function to stereotype people breaks. They just become features people choose to adopt or not for their amusement.

@pensivepigeon

When ideolgy dominates over science and research you have a problem. It is a pattern which is always regressive in practice and has a dark history.

But it will always play apart because science doesn't occur within a vacuum. It is carried out by people who are subject to ideologies. What I am suggesting is akin to discussion of all the priors and biases, declaring them to be laid out alongside the research for reference in the hope they are kept separate from the actual research.

Let me be blunt again.

Sex is a scientific fact. Its how we reproduce.

It has fuck all to do with bubbles of ideology.

How we reproduce will continue to be down to our sex. Whether we call ourselves unicorns and dragons, the baby will still come out human.

Cos fantasy can't change material reality.

And on the note of

Female = eggs
Male = sperm

Women's rights and oppression stem from our ability to concieve which wont change regardless of how we look or whether we call ourselves martian or trolls or goats.

And thats where i disengage because of your bad faith posting.

Sex is a scientific fact. Its how we reproduce.
I have never disputed this. Read my posts.

And thats where i disengage because of your bad faith posting.

You've disengaged so much already you fail to understand what I have been saying and have created a straw man of me.

This is a good place to start with the actual evidence. This is a good summary of the research, including a discussion on heretability.

research.vu.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/83595397/Polderman2018_Article_TheBiologicalContributionsToGe.pdf

The third paragraph in, the authors state "Every person has a gender identity", but provide no citation or supporting evidence.

Can you cite any evidence that all people (or even most people) have a gender identity?

I will say it again because i dont think i was blunt enough the first time.

Great post RedToothBrush

I will say it again because i dont think i was blunt enough the first time.

Bluntness doesn't get you very far I'm afraid. Metaphorically just running round with your eyes unfocused and attempting to obliterate any discussion you don't like the look of with a ruddy great club is plainly not very bright.

Try sharpening up a bit...

[quote ChancesWhatChances]@DadJoke I think you’ve got your statistics wrong poppet, most people in the U.K. are ignorant of the status of trans rights and generally don’t give a fig. Trans rights activists within the U.K. care about trans rights and are actively seeking to erode women’s rights - have you really never taken a look at the statistics of trans women attacking and sexually assaulting women within the U.K.? Has your research not yet led you to uncover the numerous stories about what is happening to women at the hands of trans women in refuges and jails? Go educate yourself a bit instead of making such stupid sweeping statements.[/quote]
You've certainly demonstrated how ignorant people can be.

Oh I think she was pretty sharp too.

Sharp and blunt at the same time. That's a new one...

Yes. Call it "non binary".

Don't think RedToothBrush would like that somehow @Ereshkigalangcleg...

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Yes. Call it "non binary".

Snigger.

Love it.

One thing this thread certainly does demonstrate is that tribalism isn't exclusively the preserve of people with a gender identity....

@pensivepigeon

One thing this thread certainly does demonstrate is that tribalism isn't exclusively the preserve of people with a gender identity....

No.

It demonstrates sex is material reality that lots of people recognise and some people try and talk bollocks to avoid and disguise.