An inclusive way to be gender critical?

[pensivepigeon]

My thoughts on gender and sex are thus:

Gender is a social construct. It is how society and individuals view the presentation of the sexes - in fashion, interests and work roles. Whereas sex is biological, we cannot change it even though we might surgically change our appearance and take artificial hormones which affect our bodily functions.

However because gender is a social construct and we are part of society we can define it. I define gender as

Female = adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.
Male= adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.

If everyone took this on board it would mean safe single sex spaces could be preserved, as people could present themselves however they want, wear what they want but use the single sex space appropriate for their sex without conflict. Uniforms would offer everyone both traditional female and male options which either sex could wear. Ditto with sports, competing takes place within the appropriate sex classes but competitors can wear either the traditional male or female competition uniforms. There would be no confusion and need to agonise over language when providing medical care.

Taking this stance stance means I have no problem when it comes to saying I am of female sex with a female gender.

So am I gender critical? Is this inclusive?

Got to love a bit of 'Yes Minister'!

By widening the gender boxes so there ceases to be divisions (over what is seen as normative or feminine/masculine) left, gender will cease to be a problem. It would simply put circle around one of those 'gender' scales so it is no longer seen as a scale and more just pictures of people in different clothes with different hairstyles. So there will be no need to suggest gender is a problem because it won't be

That's been going on for decades already......it is nothing new. That is what the both the women's and the gay liberation movements were about. We've been there and done that.....what we have now with the grans movement is actually regressive......

trans movement

There will still be sex, though......no matter how you fiddle around with your boxes, that still exists. Sex exists in the measurable world; it is not a feeling, or a set of social constructs; even though they come to be attached to it.

Then one way to tackle this is to redefine gender (as we are part of society, all you need is a big enough consensus) so it is no longer restrictive

Even better do away with gender. And just be yourself. You will still be in a sexed body, though.

I'm really aiming about getting more moderate people who might sympathise with the trans cause but consider themselves feminist onside. That way the more radical minority have no audience or sway

Most people here have empathy for those suffering dysphoria and dysmorphia, what they disagree with, though, is the concept of 'being trans', which implies being 'trapped in the wrong body'.

Dysmorphia and dysphoria are mental health/emotional health issues and as such should be treated as such. It is wrong to to peddle damaging narratives to children and young people who are struggling with themselves and their lives; many of whom will turn out to be gay or lesbian, and many of whom are autistic.

It all sounds a bit Genderbread Person, or Mermaids' Barbie to GI Joe spectrum.

That's been going on for decades already......it is nothing new

Exactly! So the task at hand is made easier. I think newer generations have done a right job of tribalising and fetishising gender expression which has resulted in making gender far more restrictive than it has been in the very recent past. However, I feel the best way to find liberation from this is not to silence their discussions but rather join in, completely validate their need to express their individuality. Encourage so much acceptance of it that gender differences are so widely fragmented they become homogenised.

There will still be sex, though......no matter how you fiddle around with your boxes, that still exists. Sex exists in the measurable world; it is not a feeling, or a set of social constructs; even though they come to be attached to it.

Absolutely! And this is the whole point!

Dysmorphia and dysphoria are mental health/emotional health issues and as such should be treated as such. It is wrong to to peddle damaging narratives to children and young people who are struggling with themselves and their lives; many of whom will turn out to be gay or lesbian, and many of whom are autistic.

I agree with this. As I stated in an earlier post.

is the concept of 'being trans', which implies being 'trapped in the wrong body'.

Isn't trans short for transgender? I take that to mean transforming from one gender to another. Gender is not determined by bodies, it is determined by the individual.

It all sounds a bit Genderbread Person, or Mermaids' Barbie to GI Joe spectrum.

Under my proposal of a broader acceptance and understanding of difference genders it is no longer a spectrum. It is just a group of people that dress differently, have different hairstyles, use a variety of different cosmetics and have different interests. It would be deemed completely normal for those people to be of either sex.

@pensivepigeon

It all sounds a bit Genderbread Person, or Mermaids' Barbie to GI Joe spectrum.

Under my proposal of a broader acceptance and understanding of difference genders it is no longer a spectrum. It is just a group of people that dress differently, have different hairstyles, use a variety of different cosmetics and have different interests. It would be deemed completely normal for those people to be of either sex.

So why call it gender, which is a term associated very closely with male and female? Why does it need to be about "groups of people" at all, if we are talking about things like the freedom to style your hair how you want?

It's interesting how gender seems to be conflated with personality these days.
It's all such a load of self indulgent claptrap really. Nobody really gives a shit what other people wear, or how they do their make up.
Anyone who was alive in the 70s/80s really ought to know this, and if they weren't, perhaps they ought to educate themselves.

Exactly. Is Goth a gender? Is punk? If not, why not?

So why call it gender, which is a term associated very closely with male and female? Why does it need to be about "groups of people" at all, if we are talking about things like the freedom to style your hair how you want?

Because that is the term people are having a problem with. Meanings of words evolve all the time to reflect usage. Instead of trying to ban the term I am suggesting redefining it so it better reflects the reality of the world around us.

It's all such a load of self indulgent claptrap really. Nobody really gives a shit what other people wear, or how they do their make up.

Young people of every generation have seemed to express a need to do this though. Even when uniforms are foisted upon people they find ways to subvert them.

Exactly. They always have and they always will. It's the current determination to put labels all over it that is intensely annoying 😂

It's claptrap, yes, but it is also insidious as it is effectively asking young people "but how much of a boy are you really?", "Are you a proper girl or not?". Therefore sowing the seeds of alienation from their own bodies.

Totally agree @bourbonne

And why should we let the word woman be redefined by others to mean anything in terms of biological sex which it most certainly doesn't? Why not just add validity to the term gender by making it mean anything which it most certainly is?

It's claptrap, yes, but it is also insidious as it is effectively asking young people "but how much of a boy are you really?", "Are you a proper girl or not?". Therefore sowing the seeds of alienation from their own bodies.

My definition of gender (as outlined numerous times) wouldn't do this.

@pensivepigeon, can you walk us through an example of this in action? i.e. describe a hypothetical person and their gender identity, in this "make it mean anything" new world of yours? I'm honestly struggling to imagine it, unless it is basically the same as the Tumblr 100+ genders sort of idea.

You've said it wouldn't do this, but short of reprogramming everyone's heads overnight with the new "means everything and nothing" definition of gender, I'm not so confident about that.

Isn't trans short for transgender? I take that to mean transforming from one gender to another. Gender is not determined by bodies, it is determined by the individual

Not everyone has a gender identity, because it is a totally modern construct, in itself; certainly in the way it is now being pushed. You can't transform from one thing to another if it exists only as a construct...except in your own mind.