An inclusive way to be gender critical?

[pensivepigeon]

My thoughts on gender and sex are thus:

Gender is a social construct. It is how society and individuals view the presentation of the sexes - in fashion, interests and work roles. Whereas sex is biological, we cannot change it even though we might surgically change our appearance and take artificial hormones which affect our bodily functions.

However because gender is a social construct and we are part of society we can define it. I define gender as

Female = adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.
Male= adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.

If everyone took this on board it would mean safe single sex spaces could be preserved, as people could present themselves however they want, wear what they want but use the single sex space appropriate for their sex without conflict. Uniforms would offer everyone both traditional female and male options which either sex could wear. Ditto with sports, competing takes place within the appropriate sex classes but competitors can wear either the traditional male or female competition uniforms. There would be no confusion and need to agonise over language when providing medical care.

Taking this stance stance means I have no problem when it comes to saying I am of female sex with a female gender.

So am I gender critical? Is this inclusive?

Diplomacy takes time.

How much would we have to lose before you decide that the diplomatic approach is not going to work? How many of the rights fought for by the feminists of the past are you willing to give up?

Sorry that should say ' not about safety but power'

I think for some but not all. People feel vulnerable and powerless then want to take power to overcome this feeling. I think it often starts with feeling vulnerable and unsafe.

It's a sad fact that many abusers were abused themselves. Tackling abuse is not just about protecting the innocent it is also about breaking this cycle.

Which means making male spaces safer not giving up women's spaces.

Which means making male spaces safer not giving up women's spaces.

Yes, that's a good idea but -

1. it wouldn't solve the problem as it's not just about safety
2. it's not up to women to do it - we have enough to sort out what with VAWG being at epidemic proportions
3. women's spaces such as bathrooms are only a small part of a much bigger problem

@pensivepigeon

Sorry that should say ' not about safety but power'

I think for some but not all. People feel vulnerable and powerless then want to take power to overcome this feeling. I think it often starts with feeling vulnerable and unsafe.

Which suggests that you personally believe that Trans people are more vulnerable/ unsafe in the UK?
If that is what you believe, the stats do not back that view up.

@Gerla, I've a vested interest. I've a son, my brother has sons. Men's safety does matter to me as well as women's. I know the issue is not just about bathrooms. It's about the whole of how a woman is defined and permeates across all of woman's spaces in society. However, I think the solution involves the whole of society and think this is what we have to engage with.

more vulnerable/ unsafe in the UK?

More than what / where?

Sorry that should have said *than the average person

Who is the average person?

Which means making male spaces safer not giving up women's spaces.

I'm glad to hear you say this but I'm not sure it's in our power to make male spaces safer ... that's down to men. What we can do is bring up our children to be welcoming of non gender conforming people. This is a long term strategy but the threat to women's spaces is here now. We have to stand together to protect them.

However, I think the solution involves the whole of society and think this is what we have to engage with.

I agree but your solutions do not seem to take into account the power imbalance between the sexes. As others have pointed out, you are coming at this from the point of view that women are universally respected and listened to. Sadly this is not the case. Just look at the different ways women and men have been admonished or attacked for talking about this issue "diplomatically".

@pensivepigeon

Who is the average person?

Is that a serious question?

I'll take it at face value and assume you are serious. It is not a who, it is maths. Statistics. What is my chance of being attacked? What is your chance of being attacked? What is my partners chance of being attacked? It can be worked out. You look at the poulation and look at the number violent crimes committed. You can crunch numbers across a population to get all sorts of information
There are statistics that look at the likelyhood of being attacked based on being a citizen of the UK, being male, being female, being trans. It can be broken down by type of crime, by perpetrator, by victim, by reported crime, by convictions. You can also look at prison data.

The UK shows men are the more likely to be victims of violent crime but also more likely to be perpetrators of violent crime than women. Trans women fall in between men and women as victims, but are as likely as men to be perpetrators of violent crime as men (I think the sexual crime and domestic crime trend is reversed ). You can work out these trends(until people start muddying the date by recording trans women as female and then you can no longer tell) So yes, Trans women would be safer in female spaces, but they are at no more risk than other males in male spaces, where as women would be significantly less safe if their single sex spaces became gender neutral.

So male spaces are unsafe? It is unsafe to be amongst males? For men and women? I would have thought this needs addressing. It is not surprising some males reject masculinity. Very sad that the dangers still exists around males even if they reject masculinity. Tackle this and everyone is safer.

But why do they want to occupy our safe spaces? Is it because their's are unsafe? Tackle this and our safe spaces remain safe.

I think this is begging the question. You have assumed they want to occupy our spaces because they are safe.

I tend towards thinking they want to occupy our spaces because they want to occupy our spaces. Safe or unsafe.

It is unsafe to be amongst males? For men and women?

Surely it cannot be news to you that men overwhelmingly commit the majority of violence? Women have separate spaces to allow us to live, as far as possible, in safety. (For example, charities campaign for separate bathrooms for women in third world countries because they recognise that without them women cannot participate safely in every day life. The same bathrooms that were set up here by women wanting the same goal - which now are being opened up to men). We do not exclude men from our bathrooms because we think all males are violent but because most violence is committed by men. Of course, males (include transgendered males) are on the whole stronger and larger than women which means that they are also more likely to be able to defend themselves successfully compared to the average woman.

Tackle this and our safe spaces remain safe.

You keep on saying this and people keep on telling you that it is only a small part of a bigger picture. It would not solve the problem. You have not stumbled on a solution.

Surely it cannot be news to you that men overwhelmingly commit the majority of violence?

No, just summing up for clarification.

Of course, males (include transgendered males) are on the whole stronger and larger than women which means that they are also more likely to be able to defend themselves successfully

As, I have said, I don't think aggression in any form is the key. In that sort of society everyone apart from the fittest and strongest (and loudest) is vulnerable. This is why I find strength in and advocate diplomacy over being adversarial.

Men's spaces aren't unsafe. Find me any police-confirmed example of a man dressed as a woman (drag queen) or a MTF trans person who has been physically attacked in a men's room. There are several examples of their being attacked in and around women's restrooms, but not men's. If we were going by safety, MTFs are safer in the men's room.

This is why I find strength in and advocate diplomacy over being adversarial.

You have said that you believe in diplomacy and playing the long game and that it may take a long time. Do you think while we are waiting for that we might be allowed to protect women-only spaces?

Do you think while we are waiting for that we might be allowed to protect women-only spaces?

Of course, I have said so, haven't I?

Of course, I have said so, haven't I?

Then I am still at a loss to understand exactly where you are coming from and why you are advocating diplomacy and not upsetting anyone AND keeping women-only spaces. Diplomacy is not keeping our women-only spaces. They are disappearing before our eyes.

@pensivepigeon

Of course, males (include transgendered males) are on the whole stronger and larger than women which means that they are also more likely to be able to defend themselves successfully

As, I have said, I don't think aggression in any form is the key. In that sort of society everyone apart from the fittest and strongest (and loudest) is vulnerable. This is why I find strength in and advocate diplomacy over being adversarial.

I'm sure everyone agrees, but we're talking about being able to defend yourself from bad behaviour in the loos, aren't we? However gifted I am in diplomacy, I cannot easily fight off an attacker.

I'm honestly still not clear what the aggression is that we're being warned against. I see women speaking politely and assertively. I don't see aggression. What is is we have to stop doing?

I generally see myself a bit like you describe yourself - choosing diplomacy, ideas, tackling issues side-on. I think there is absolutely a place for that. However, I think it only works against good-faith opponents, where you think there's a good chance you can genuinely get to the nub of the issue together and make progress. With this issue, I don't think that applies. Every ordinary person in Britain knows that there are two sexes and that the rest is enjoyable fluff. They are largely unaware of what's been going on. They largely believe that this is about a small number of distressed transsexuals. Rather than involve ourselves in arcane debates within the framework of gender ideology, thereby lending it credence while keeping the actual issues shrouded in obscurity, I believe we need to step aside from the whole idea and let it step into the light and give it enough rope to hang itself. (Metaphor, obviously, not some veiled threat to trans people...)