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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Keir Starmer on Sophy Ridge

279 replies

EdgeOfACoin · 21/02/2021 09:10

On just now.

Asked about trans rights. Said that they didn't go far enough and the current process to transition is demeaning.

Criticised both sides (ie TRAs and feminists) for 'tearing lumps' out of each other.

Expressed sympathy for women who were victims of domestic violence but refused to say whether refuges should be single-sex or not (fence-sitting).

OP posts:
SirVixofVixHall · 22/02/2021 15:29

@OnlyTheLangoftheTitBerg

I understand enough of how the world of politics works to recognise why Starmer is picking splinters out of his arse from the fence but fuck me, I am absolutely sick of women’s concerns and rights being such a dirty word that we’re expected to be grateful for a few crumbs. We count, we matter, we vote, and the absolute least we deserve is someone willing to stand up and address the fucking appalling, deep-seated misogyny in politics in general and the Labour Party in particular that we’ve lived under for far too long.
Agree.
Andante57 · 22/02/2021 15:53

Thank you Michelle & Maud for answering my question - what you say makes sense.

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 22/02/2021 15:56

have met trans women who are women. Not trying to fit in,not going through a phase - women whose body does not match them and everything they think/feel.

They're not women.

SmallPug · 22/02/2021 16:19

This doesn't surprise me. When I emailed Rosie Duffield support after one of the many pile ons and copied in my MP and Keir Starmer I got a reply from my MP talking about why she believes for self ID. She is in the shadow cabinet. Labour definitely believe self ID should happen. And I'm never voting for her again!

I agree with @HPFA up thread though, that we should publicly lean on the positive stuff - like saying how great it was to hear him talk about the importance women's refuges. Less attack, more stealth.

OnlyTheLangoftheTitBerg · 22/02/2021 18:15

@SmallPug

This doesn't surprise me. When I emailed Rosie Duffield support after one of the many pile ons and copied in my MP and Keir Starmer I got a reply from my MP talking about why she believes for self ID. She is in the shadow cabinet. Labour definitely believe self ID should happen. And I'm never voting for her again!

I agree with @HPFA up thread though, that we should publicly lean on the positive stuff - like saying how great it was to hear him talk about the importance women's refuges. Less attack, more stealth.

Problem is, he didn’t say he understood the importance of women’s refuges etc. He said he understood women thought they were important, which is not quite the same thing.
Gurufloof · 22/02/2021 18:36

or is it better to join with the Starmer Out mob and ensure that any future Labour PM (and there will be one eventually) is completely on the side of the TRAs

So with a future twaw leader will they get elected. Ummm no. Not a chance. The longer this goes on the more both sexes will see the damage done and the less likely they will vote labour.
It's not my problem if labour is unelectable. They know what to do to gain my vote.

MrsWooster · 22/02/2021 18:36

I wonder how many candidates the SDP are fielding-in May and at the next GE? It would be nice to see a potential coalition partner who knows what women are...

HidingUnderARock · 22/02/2021 18:47

When has a coalition in this country not stamped all over the smaller partner and lost it all credibility for a generaltion?

Also, I scrolled down and didn't see the funny thing... what did I miss?

Shedbuilder · 22/02/2021 18:49

It costs £10 to join the SDP unless you're a former Lib Dem, in which case it's only £1.

Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow · 22/02/2021 18:51

Starmer is nothing to too many people.

HidingUnderARock · 22/02/2021 18:56

It costs £10 to join the SDP unless you're a former Lib Dem, in which case it's only £1
Haha, thank you. Do I have to prove it? I quit the Libs about a year after they became LibDems.
Showing my age badly there I know.

HPFA · 22/02/2021 19:09

@Gurufloof

or is it better to join with the Starmer Out mob and ensure that any future Labour PM (and there will be one eventually) is completely on the side of the TRAs

So with a future twaw leader will they get elected. Ummm no. Not a chance. The longer this goes on the more both sexes will see the damage done and the less likely they will vote labour.
It's not my problem if labour is unelectable. They know what to do to gain my vote.

There is no way this issue is ever going to be important enough to enough people to make serious inroads into any one party's support. Sooner or later there will be a Labour led government. And it might be better not to have thrown away any chance of influencing that government.
Gurufloof · 22/02/2021 19:26

There is no way this issue is ever going to be important enough to enough people to make serious inroads into any one party's support. Sooner or later there will be a Labour led government. And it might be better not to have thrown away any chance of influencing that government

This issue massively affects 51% of the population. Eventually most of those will notice what's going on. I've seen already that more women are becoming aware. And a fair few men who can see the massive unfairness in sports have also come to my attention and will vote accordingly.

I will actually do my damndest to make sure that women are protected and so will many women on here and elsewhere. Labour will never get my vote again if they carry on. I will remember this and talk about it to all whenever I can. Yes i will be an old lady ranting, but the message will be heard and labour will suffer.
How well will labour even do without the women to make the tea, stuff the envelopes, knock on doors?

WhereYouLeftIt · 22/02/2021 19:35

"There is no way this issue is ever going to be important enough to enough people to make serious inroads into any one party's support."

I expect Scottish Labour used to think that way. Certainly when I still lived there (decades ago now) their arrogance and certainty that they were entitled to our votes was palpable. Tories were few and SNP were dismissed as niche. How many MPs have they got left? Damned few.

NecessaryScene1 · 22/02/2021 19:36

Re the SDP: The sticking point for for me is that they’re anti EU

Um, at this post-Brexit point, how does any party's pro/anti-Brexit policy matter? It's done. At least until you're talking about rejoining, which no party is yet?

the assumption here is that there is some universal woman-way to think and feel. This makes no sense.

I'm going to let TistheSeason have some slack, and try to address what she is seeing. I know the approved gender critical line is that there's no "inner female soul". But there clearly are female-typical and male-typical behaviours. (Sorry!)

There are feminine males and masculine females. And that is very strongly correlated with homosexuality.

I'm pretty certain the transwomen TistheSeason are thinking of are homosexual - the prototypical old-school transwoman is basically an "extreme homosexual". And, yes, they can be quite feminine.

But I'd say there's no clear line between them and other males. If you're going to claim they have a "female gender identity", then so do a lot of gay men, and some straight. So it's not so much a "female" identity as a demeanour more common in male-attracted people, but even then not exclusively. And a lot of women don't have it... Having this demeanour no more makes you female than having a female typical height of 5'4" does. And there's no way to screen for it - whereas screening by sex is easy, and that correlates very strongly to behaviour for the population as a whole.

The problem is the homosexual transwoman is now the minority - there are a lot more heterosexual males than homosexual out there, and heterosexuals are increasingly claiming trans identities. And those "transwomen" act extremely masculinely. They're almost "extreme heterosexuals", tbh - so attracted to females they try to become their fantasy.

Anyone making "transwomen" policies thinking of 1990s homosexuals is way behind the times. Giving slack on opposite-sex access for those "real" transwomen opens the door for far too many.

Here's more on it, by Bailey and Blanchard:

One problem with the current mainstream narrative regarding gender dysphoria is that it makes no distinctions among apparently very different kinds of persons. For example, Bruce Jenner appeared to be a very masculine man, an Olympic athlete who was married to three different women and had six children with them, before becoming Caitlyn Jenner. In contrast, Jazz Jennings, a natal male, was so feminine that she earned a diagnosis of gender identity disorder at the age of four. She is attracted to males. Jenner and Jennings are so different in their presentation and history that it is surprising to us that anyone thinks they have the same condition. Jenner and Jennings are examples of two very different kinds of gender dysphoria that have been scientifically well studied, and have fundamentally different motivations, clinical presentations, and likely causes.

The failure of so many therapists and activists to acknowledge this distinction is disturbing for at least two reasons. First, it suggests they are either ignorant of relevant scientific evidence or are purposefully ignoring it. Second, failure to make scientifically valid and fundamental distinctions among different kinds of gender dysphoric persons can only prevent progress toward finding the best approach to helping each. Measles, influenza, and strep throat are all associated with fever. But if we had merely lumped them together as “fever,” we would not have effective treatments for them.

Andante57 · 22/02/2021 19:41

This was on Guido Fawkes today:

The anti-Starmer left has launched an inspired fundraiser to help buy Sir Keir a new spine; raking in £500 worth of donations already. The Crowdfunder – helpfully shared by arch Corbynite Rachel Swindon – implores philanthropic-minded members of the public

ChloeCrocodile · 22/02/2021 20:51

I've seen already that more women are becoming aware.

I agree with this. I’m not sure it’s enough to change someone’s vote (yet) but in the last year I’ve had wonderful conversations with a couple of teaching colleagues about safeguarding issues in schools (unthinkable even two years ago) and a few close family members have gone from tolerating my ranting to actually bringing the subject up.

Refusing to listen to heartland concerns (re immigrant populations reducing low-skilled wages) as dismissing them (as racist) is, imo, a significant root cause of labour’s current problems. They are all set to do the exact same thing about women’s concerns about self-ID. Idiots.

(For completeness, I believe that immigration is a net benefit for the country. But the specific negative effects on subsections of society were never addressed and therefore never mitigated. By analogy, the integration of trans and GNC people in to daily society is of net benefit, but the specific negative effects on women need to be addressed and mitigated.)

perpetualnamechanger · 22/02/2021 20:53

@WhereYouLeftIt

I think the SNP have this problem right now, they feel entitled to our vote but for me this is a reason not to vote for them and I won't be voting for them this time, though I have in every election for every election I have been able to vote in.

If Nicola can't get this right, and won't even listen, then I have no faith in her or her government to run an independent county.

Women need safe spaces.

Around 8 years ago my life was changed forever, due to domestic violence. I'm lucky to be alive. It didn't feel like it at the time.

What followed was years of PTSD and when I was finally able to have therapy, unfortunately it was group therapy, there was a man in the group (fuck knows why or how). While the women in the group explained that they had had severe depression, suicidal thoughts, utterly hopeless situations like my own, ( I wasn't eating, feeling suicidal, wanting every day to just die so it would be easier for everyone to accept), I could see my own situation was not unique to me when the same feeling were expressed by some of the other women.

Then the man had his turn. He spoke of how unfair it was to lose everything in his life. His home, his family, everything in his life,just because he was attracted to a young girl. He thought it was absurd that she did not have the choice to have a relationahip with him because she was so young ( he looked 50+ btw). I thought of him when I heard of the love has no age limit campaign. He thought everyone was wrong and he didn't want anyone to tell him otherwise. I thought he was a peadophile.

I never went back and instead continued to live in my massive depression until I moved Dr, years later though.

I found a female gp, had one to one therapy (with an incredible woman therapist) and very slowly rebuilt my life.

So many years of my life wasted, almost lost, due to not receiving adequate care and support.

I still remember that group session and that is why I know that predators don't belong with vulnerable women.

PurpleHoodie · 22/02/2021 21:02

So there we have it.

Keir Starmer doesn't have the balls to go and sit down for 6 hours and converse with female prisoners.

He's a gutless wonder.

Chuck him in the Millwall bin.

MaudTheInvincible · 22/02/2021 21:23

Thanks perpetualnamechanger, I found your post very moving and I'm sorry for the years you lost.

Sophoclesthefox · 22/02/2021 21:39

Re the SDP: The sticking point for for me is that they’re anti EU

Um, at this post-Brexit point, how does any party's pro/anti-Brexit policy matter? It's done

Yes, I understand that, obviously. I didn’t say they were anti Brexit, I said they were anti EU. As we have a number of years left of figuring out and bedding in trade deals and all the rest of the fine print, hostility to the EU will continue to matter as we thrash out the future relationship.

dotoallasyouwouldbedoneby · 22/02/2021 22:00

@TheABC

Well, at least it's out in the open. The Labour party do not give a toss about women.
This. I resigned when Corbyn was elected, as history was repeating itself and I wasn't willing to sit through another 1980s Militant tendency takeover. Then there was the anti-semitism stuff and now they don't want to stick up for women's sex rights. In Scotland so I now vote Conservative to try to stop IndyRef2 and it gets easier every time I do it, despite having been a Remain voter in 2016.
dotoallasyouwouldbedoneby · 22/02/2021 22:45

@Treats

And please stop saying that spoiling your ballot will be noticed by the political parties and is an effective form of protest. It really isn’t. If you’re not voting for a candidate because of their stance on this issue you have to write to them and tell them so.
...yes and vote for the party which would disadvantage them most.
HPFA · 23/02/2021 11:40

Love the way this thread is going.

  1. Insist that Keir comes out fully in favour of GC position even though doing so would make it more likely that he would be replaced by someone who was fully on board with the TRA position.

  2. Be happy to keep the Conservatives in power even though at this very moment they are putting through a maternity Bill which mentions "perganant people", have one of their own heading up a Committee seeking to introduce self ID by stealth, and even though all the things we complain about have taken place under a Conservative government. And even if you think the Tories would do slightly better on the issue than Labour (and there's precious little evidence that that would be the case) what about the myriad other ways women (especially poor women) have had their lives worsened by Tory governments.

You know who's really enjoying this thread? The TRAs. So far their ability to operate politically is far above ours. They'll have worked out that we're basically making it a complete waste of time for a Labour leader to actually try and accommodate our position in any way. Why would Keir come out and announce support for single sex DV shelters? It's obvious from this thread that all he'd get is "Nah, he's still fence sitting, he needs to say TW are not women, he needs to say Stoinewall are evil, he's a coward" etc etc."

WhereYouLeftIt · 23/02/2021 11:47

"Why would Keir come out and announce support for single sex DV shelters?"

Personal morality?