Keir Starmer on Sophy Ridge

[EdgeOfACoin]

On just now.

Asked about trans rights. Said that they didn't go far enough and the current process to transition is demeaning.

Criticised both sides (ie TRAs and feminists) for 'tearing lumps' out of each other.

Expressed sympathy for women who were victims of domestic violence but refused to say whether refuges should be single-sex or not (fence-sitting).

Not remotely interested in political games with activists. I'm here for women's rights and interests and that's it.

Tories have so far been the only party prepared to even talk about protection of single sex spaces, and with MPs who are not full out down with sex based rights. Labour can get as blatantly anti woman as it likes, it's the electorate it's going to have to convince, and as one of the electorate I'm not interested in them 'accomodating me in some way', I'm interested in a party that actually has equality of value for female humans. If they don't have that, I couldn't give a toss for anything else they may or may not do. Don't need virtue signalling or promises; just action.

Anyone who thinks Labour is retrievable at this point, or that women should just go on hoping for crumbs from the table while serving the higher cause of voting against the Tories.... well, ymmv. You vote your way, I'll vote my way.

@WhereYouLeftIt

"Why would Keir come out and announce support for single sex DV shelters?"

Personal morality?

Personal morality and maybe also .....common sense?

They'll have worked out that we're basically making it a complete waste of time for a Labour leader to actually try and accommodate our position in any way

Some issues are beyond 'accommodation'. The fundamentals have to be right, because it is from the fundamentals that all else arises.

Kier Starmer is stymied. His role is to 'accommodate' all sections and factions - in the hope tat the Labour party can be re-elected; but he shows absolutely no awareness of the fundamental issues for women's rights. I don't even expect him to, tbh. He's in place purely to appease.

Anyone who thinks Labour is retrievable at this point, or that women should just go on hoping for crumbs from the table while serving the higher cause of voting against the Tories.... well, ymmv. You vote your way, I'll vote my way.

This 👆

@MaudTheInvincible

Thank you.

Like all women, my life was shaped by my sex. That our rights are being threatened and we're told to shut up and be kind really upsets me.

When I was 18 I was raped by a friend who I looked up to and trusted like a big brother. He was 27 at the time and this was the first time male violence affected my life.

At the time I wasn't registered with a Dr and blamed myself for being in that position but I did speak to the Dr at university. Unfortunately the male Dr reinforced my belief, he said I shouldn't have been drunk and implied there was nothing I could do. I should have gone to the police but I knew I wouldn't have been believed and he confirmed this. I dropped out of uni soon after due to the mental health problems I then had. This was back in 2008.

The DV relationship happened years later but to be fair my self esteem was so low I sleepwalked right in to it. I used to wonder how different my life would have been if I hadn't been raped, if I'd seen a better Dr, if I'd had the strength to go to the police, to go to court, if I'd finished uni, if I'd been a man then this would not have happened.

When the metoo movement happened, I thought things would change for women, that a young woman today would be helped better than I was but unfortunately I still have little faith in the system.

I am just one woman and I know there is many women today who are in danger. I know many women have experienced the same or worse situations and sadly we are a long way from fixing these issues. Every time we are called bigots for standing up for women, we move further away still.

Men like Kier Starmer, the uni Dr, the people who thought it was a good idea to lump depressed people in a mixed support group, while ignoring the fact our reasons for being depressed stemmed from different reasons, because of our sex, will probably never face these things or fully understand, at least while they tell women that they are not important enough to be listened to.
To sit in that group and listen to women cry that they had pnd, had escaped domestic violence and that they were suicidal and then all of us were forced to listen to a peadophile tell us that he was depressed because someone, somewhere had safeguarded a 12 year old girl (who he described as mature for her age), is still one of the most surreal and sickening things that has ever happened to me. It shouldn't have happened.

@OnlyTheLangoftheTitBerg
"Problem is, he didn’t say he understood the importance of women’s refuges etc. He said he understood women thought they were important, which is not quite the same thing."

Thank you for highlighting this, to Kier and Nicola and all the politicians ignoring women's concerns, here's my reasons for believing women's services, especially refuges are important. I'd love to hear you answer why I am wrong.

"There is no way this issue is ever going to be important enough to enough people to make serious inroads into any one party's support."

3 women a week are being murdered during lockdown by a partner or ex, there aren't enough women's shelters, the number of shelters that cannot accommodate children because they've been made mixed sex is growing, and the best any political party can come up with is the equivalent of ''I'm sorry you're offended''.

@Thelnebriati

"There is no way this issue is ever going to be important enough to enough people to make serious inroads into any one party's support."

3 women a week are being murdered during lockdown by a partner or ex, there aren't enough women's shelters, the number of shelters that cannot accommodate children because they've been made mixed sex is growing, and the best any political party can come up with is the equivalent of ''I'm sorry you're offended''.

and outside lockdown, it is 2 per week....and yet they trot out the trans are most at risk stuff and no one challenges it.

@MaudTheInvincible

Anyone who thinks Labour is retrievable at this point, or that women should just go on hoping for crumbs from the table while serving the higher cause of voting against the Tories.... well, ymmv. You vote your way, I'll vote my way.

This 👆

Yep.

I will support Starmer if he ever finds his spine but Labour have no claim to women's rights and I won't forget the sneaky business with the 2019 manifesto. They have a firm intent to reorganise society around gender dysphoria/identity. I have no confidence in any party that does that.

People are behaving like it's just the hard left it's bloody not it's centre left too and women too Rayner, Nandy, Philips etc

perpetualnamechanger

I haven't liked Labour since Blair, glimmer of hope with Corbyn, didn't last long though. Kier nearly had me but lost me on Sophie with some of his policies. I just think yet another clueless tit.

I don't see politics anymore, I see marketing ploys!

This is why more and more of us are so bereft at feeling politically homeless. Any vote is a compromise, but if you’re left-leaning/centre left, where is the compromise between abandoning women’s right to even define ourselves and so losing everything that flows from that, and abandoning the disabled and disadvantaged to the ravages of the Tory vision of the welfare system? There simply isn’t an acceptable compromise to be found.

I loathe this 'there's two sides taking lumps blah, blah, blah!)'. No, there's women attempting to be rational, consensual, and even handed and there's thugs ranting and misrepresenting us. Even female MPs are ignoring women needs. And that 'trans rights are human rights' mantra really gets my goat!
So I'm going to write to Keir Starmer and tell him to start the conversation in Labour, (im a member). If he's that bothered let's have that conversation. Reel in the attack dogs and TRA's from the CLPs, (vile bunch of mysogynists), and let us have that conversation.... I'll wait and see what he says.....

"I don't see politics anymore, I see marketing ploys!"

Very well put! And sadly true.

I am old enough to remember when politics was full of people like Alan Johnson - conviction politicians. Not these focus-group-forelock-tugging-swayed-by-the-loudest fuckwits. No matter how much you disagreed with them you could at least respect that they said what they stood for and stood by what they said. You didn't have to second-guess what they might have meant by something they said and voted in hope that you were right. You could vote for someone with reasonable certainty what you were voting for.

I don't see politics anymore, I see marketing ploys

Nailed it.

And like all marketing ploys, they quickly get old, tired and people get fed up with the endless, shallow manipulation.

He's a spineless bastard. Not just on this issue either. I would never vote Labour with him in charge.

They'll have worked out that we're basically making it a complete waste of time for a Labour leader to actually try and accommodate our position in any way

One word: votes.

That's why Starmer needs to pay attention. Law, morality and ethics as well of course, which goes without saying.

@OnlyTheLangoftheTitBerg

This is why more and more of us are so bereft at feeling politically homeless. Any vote is a compromise, but if you’re left-leaning/centre left, where is the compromise between abandoning women’s right to even define ourselves and so losing everything that flows from that, and abandoning the disabled and disadvantaged to the ravages of the Tory vision of the welfare system? There simply isn’t an acceptable compromise to be found.

It is interesting that you characterise the Conservatives in this way. It sounds like the language used by the Labour supporters I chatted with who are so locked up in the idea that all Tories are evil and nothing anyone can say will convince them otherwise. I always try and remember that all politicians are actually people, and mostly good people on all sides, but with different views in what is right for the country.

I can’t quite work out how on one hand Labour will be kind and listen to and support the disabled and needy, yet on the other hand the entire party actively refuse to listen to or remotely consider the feelings of women (and ignore 200 women murdered each year but make videos supporting zero murdered trans people) - to the point of expelling members who disagree.

I have always found Labours approach to be rather dictatorial and ‘I know what’s best for you’ rather than recognising human nature and working with it to try and get the best result for as many people as possible.

I’m even going to go out on a limb and say that I think the Tories genuinely do their best to balance people’s welfare needs with the cost to the economy. It is not always perfect and requires constant effort to make it fair but I think they generally do a good job.

Now, why would I think that? Am I some middle class rich person who doesn’t give a stuff about anyone else as long as I’m alright? No, and we have been hit financially by some of the conservative policies due to our family setup but I have a genuine belief that they are closer to finding the right balance in society than any other party atm.

Are you able to step back from your firmly held belief and just consider why I might feel I am right? I’m not asking you to change your mind, just test your beliefs and look at the other side.

You're right @OnlyTheLangoftheTitBerg - it is an important distinction. It was a weak and classic politician's answer. I think I loathe Keir more because I know he is intelligent and should get all this, but I can only think that he's choosing not to.
(side note - I seem incapable of knowing how to quote a message as a reply and I'm still not sure if using the @ is acceptable Mumsnet etiquette! Please do let me know if not).

*Are you able to step back from your firmly held belief and just consider why I might feel I am right? I’m not asking you to change your mind, just test your beliefs and look at the other side8

People cling to their political allegiances as they would to a religious faith. I did the same until fairly recently.......letting go of that has been liberating.

@SmallPug

You're right *@OnlyTheLangoftheTitBerg* - it is an important distinction. It was a weak and classic politician's answer. I think I loathe Keir more because I know he is intelligent and should get all this, but I can only think that he's choosing not to. (side note - I seem incapable of knowing how to quote a message as a reply and I'm still not sure if using the @ is acceptable Mumsnet etiquette! Please do let me know if not).

Smallpug click the three little dots bottom right of a post and it will give you quote option

It also works quite well if you bold someone’s user name (asterisk text asterisk ) with no gaps as it will attract their attention.

@HPFA

Love the way this thread is going.

1. Insist that Keir comes out fully in favour of GC position even though doing so would make it more likely that he would be replaced by someone who was fully on board with the TRA position.

2. Be happy to keep the Conservatives in power even though at this very moment they are putting through a maternity Bill which mentions "perganant people", have one of their own heading up a Committee seeking to introduce self ID by stealth, and even though all the things we complain about have taken place under a Conservative government. And even if you think the Tories would do slightly better on the issue than Labour (and there's precious little evidence that that would be the case) what about the myriad other ways women (especially poor women) have had their lives worsened by Tory governments.

You know who's really enjoying this thread? The TRAs. So far their ability to operate politically is far above ours. They'll have worked out that we're basically making it a complete waste of time for a Labour leader to actually try and accommodate our position in any way. Why would Keir come out and announce support for single sex DV shelters? It's obvious from this thread that all he'd get is "Nah, he's still fence sitting, he needs to say TW are not women, he needs to say Stoinewall are evil, he's a coward" etc etc."

The flaw in your reasoning is you’re assuming Labour want us to vote for them when they have made it very clear they don’t want GC women to vote for them.

gardenbird38 Thank you!

Problem is, he didn’t say he understood the importance of women’s refuges etc. He said he understood women thought they were important, which is not quite the same thing.

It is sad and maddening but also a little bit amusing, this idea that the leader of the opposition needs special praise and hand-holding for that timid, half-hearted mention of women. Starmer should take a leaf out of Lord Hunt's book.

People are behaving like it's just the hard left it's bloody not it's centre left too and women too Rayner, Nandy, Philips etc

Yes, the attack on Rosie Duffield should have been a galvanising moment for the rational wing (if it still exists).

gardenbird my husband is disabled. I have seen at first-hand how people have irrefutable medical evidence going back decades ignored under the current system. I have seen how someone who has complex mental disabilities is made to perform like a dancing bear - lift this leg, raise that arm - at dehumanising assessments. I have supported someone through a system which thinks a physiotherapist is qualified to make judgments on those complex mental disabilities. I have read with my own eyes the blatant lies that were written on the decision report, to the point I queried whether they had mixed up my DH’s assessment with someone else’s because it bore no resemblance to the evidence we presented. I have supported him through the stress of a PIP appeal, all simply to get back what he had been awarded under previous systems. And my husband’s experience is far from unique.

By the DWP’s own figures, the cost of disability benefit fraud is less than the amount unclaimed by those who would be eligible. This is not about balancing welfare needs with the cost to the economy. This is ideological.

Please don’t assume I’m simply repeating empty leftie rhetoric. I know exactly what this system does to the vulnerable.