Keir Starmer on Sophy Ridge

[EdgeOfACoin]

On just now.

Asked about trans rights. Said that they didn't go far enough and the current process to transition is demeaning.

Criticised both sides (ie TRAs and feminists) for 'tearing lumps' out of each other.

Expressed sympathy for women who were victims of domestic violence but refused to say whether refuges should be single-sex or not (fence-sitting).

The Tories know this is a safe issue for them because the sane public are not keen on wokeness. All the identity politics crap of Labour activists works in the Tories favour. Plus, very few elected Tory women are saying TWAW.

For Labour, the problem is both that their activists are TWAW and, more worryingly, high profile women MPs such as Rayner are TWAW.

As depressing as this is, I don't think we should be completely despondent. Until very recently, politicians thought that there was no downside at all in taking a TWAW stance. Women had been silenced so effectively that only the TRA voice was heard, amplified by Stonewall and other lobby groups.

Things have changed a lot in the last couple of years. The Times, Telegraph and DM are all openly GC and that is shifting their readers' views. When the Times and DM first started publishing GC articles, most BTL comments were basically This is feminist rubbish and any downsides of mixed sex facilities are problems that women have brought on themselves by shrewishly demanding equal rights. It's totally different now, with GC comments the overwhelming majority.

Now, of course, that cuts two ways with Labour, as their base is implacably anti-the right wing press (understandably). But ultimately, their strategists know that they cannot win without the votes of people in the middle ground and even the liberal end of the right wing. Alistair Campbell understood this very well. If they ever win again, it will be because they listen to their strategists and not to Twitter.

Politicians are not stupid when it comes to their own self-interest. I suspect many are quietly shifting from Why wouldn't I support TWAW because I get a lot of woke points and where's the downside? to Hmm, I need to treat a bit carefully here because lots of voters are not on board with this

@Tistheseason17

Is there a lot of evidence of trans women seeking refuge at women's DV hostels and then committing DV against the women there?

I'd like to understand the issue.

As trans women are counted as women, how would you know? Its impossible to keep accurate records.

A better question is why safeguarding is being put aside for one group to the detriment of another? Safeguarding is about prevention.
Or why traumatised women have to make a choice between mixed sex spaces or staying with their abuser.
Or why there cannot be a third mixed sex option for trans people.

The problem is Starmer’s inability to get to grips with a problem that should be simple. All he has to do is accept the existence of conflict of rights and give his MPs clear support when they defend sex based rights.

Yes.

Alex Sobel deleted that tweet where he was asked if he thought women were entitled to single sex refuges, prisons and hospital wards and he replied with a flat 'no'. Because even he must realise that that is an absolute terrible and misogynistic look and an indefensible stance.

Keir doesn't even have to do that much, just acknowledge biological sex and that single sex spaces must be upheld.

The fact that he is too chicken shit to even do this just illustrates how batshit Labour is now.

Eighty seats weren't enough were they? No clue. Absolutely no clue what the public think. I've had it with them frankly. Voted for him in the leadership in the faint hope he'd be sensible. They are all cracked, all of them.

bloody hell, why is it so difficult to stand up for womens legal rights? Sadly I shall be voting Tory until the Labour Party can sort itself out. This singular issue is enough for me to cast my vote, womens rights must be protected.

@Thelnebriati - thank you.
I have been the victim of DV but I don't have negative feelings towards sharing space with a trans woman who was also experiencing DV. But, I understand we all feel differently. My experience of trans women has been v. postive but I appreciate not everyone is in the same boat.

I would also say there are some women I would not want to share space with as they are aggressive, over bearing and bullying irrespective of their natural born status.

@Tistheseason17

Is there a lot of evidence of trans women seeking refuge at women's DV hostels and then committing DV against the women there?

I'd like to understand the issue.

This question might have been relevant 20 years ago, but the distinction between trans and non trans is now more about belief than presentation or dysphoria. Being outwardly gender conforming does not imply that somebody is not trans. It’s very difficult to define ‘not trans’.

The issue is also not whether trans women should be allowed into mixed sex hostels or whether mixed sex hostels should exist (no law to prevent this), but whether the law should be changed to specifically prevent individual hostels from excluding all people whose sex is male. They will want to do this not only to exclude dangerous men, but to provide a space for women who, having suffered abuse, do not want to share space with men.

A third issue is that Stonewall are currently misrepresenting the law to persuade service providers that it is already illegal to have a blanket exclusion based on sex.

God help me I voted for Labour under Corbyn one election and spoilt my ballot paper on the next. I’ll be voting Tory next election at this rate

Please Starmer sit down and listen properly to the issues and stop with the ‘both sides’ rhetoric

@merrymouse

That is really helpful. I've sometimes not found responses to be as constructive in response to understanding what the issue is - but this is good, thanks

"I would also say there are some women I would not want to share space with as they are aggressive, over bearing and bullying irrespective of their natural born status."

Difference is, if a female physically attacked me, I would have a chance of defending myself or getting away. If a male attacks me, even if he's ballpark my height (short), I would not stand a chance.

And there are lots of men I would trust 100%. I still don't think they should be allowed in female spaces.

@PersonaNonGarter

The Tories know this is a safe issue for them because the sane public are not keen on wokeness. All the identity politics crap of Labour activists works in the Tories favour. Plus, very few elected Tory women are saying TWAW.

For Labour, the problem is both that their activists are TWAW and, more worryingly, high profile women MPs such as Rayner are TWAW.

Yup. I have no desire to help these people gain power. Why would I? The denialism around biology, male-pattern violence and safeguarding is a massive red flag and makes me question their ability to develop good policy on anything.

Btw the NEC statement on all-women shortlists still hasn't been changed as promised.

@WhereYouLeftIt

"I would also say there are some women I would not want to share space with as they are aggressive, over bearing and bullying irrespective of their natural born status."

Difference is, if a female physically attacked me, I would have a chance of defending myself or getting away. If a male attacks me, even if he's ballpark my height (short), I would not stand a chance.

And there are lots of men I would trust 100%. I still don't think they should be allowed in female spaces.

Completely agree

Even when I was having a bad time with a very unpleasant female senior manager I didn’t ever feel physically vulnerable where I’ve used the ladies toilets to get away from aggressive male colleagues as I also felt physically vulnerable whilst they used their size to intimidate me

I understand enough of how the world of politics works to recognise why Starmer is picking splinters out of his arse from the fence but fuck me, I am absolutely sick of women’s concerns and rights being such a dirty word that we’re expected to be grateful for a few crumbs. We count, we matter, we vote, and the absolute least we deserve is someone willing to stand up and address the fucking appalling, deep-seated misogyny in politics in general and the Labour Party in particular that we’ve lived under for far too long.

@Tistheseason17

Is there a lot of evidence of trans women seeking refuge at women's DV hostels and then committing DV against the women there?

I'd like to understand the issue.

Two parts to this:

1. Women have a right to have places where people with Penises are not present-regardless of how those people identify.
2. If the doors are opened to ‘real’ transwomen, how would you stop abusive men getting through the door by claiming to be trans? Serious question-how would you know?

I experienced DV from a man and, yes,he was much stronger and I did not fight back physically. through fear of what he was capable of.

I experienced significant mental abuse and bullying from a woman.

I fought back against both through police/work.

Both pretty damned awful experiences but I have encountered more of the latter in my life, sadly.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I cannot really comment on negative experiences with trans women as I have only had positive experiences.

If I am understanding PPs correctly (hope so) there are males self identifying as females who have no dysmorphia and no genuine trans feelings/plans but just want to infiltrate women's spaces for their own ends. That does not sound safe at all for women and genuine trans women. Or have I misunderstood the issue?
I'm looking to understand and grow knowledge, not to disagree with anyone.

His arse must be hurting from all that fence sitting.

Tistheseason we have safeguarding for a reason, and no single group should be a sacred caste. We don’t exempt certain people from having DBS checks for a new job just because we know someone lovely just like them, and we don’t - or shouldn’t - open the doors to single sex spaces, where women are entitled to privacy, dignity and safety, to people with penises just because we know some other people with penises who wouldn’t hurt a fly. (85% of people identifying as TW retain their penis, btw.)

Men have historically gone to far greater lengths to access victims than simply claiming to be a woman, which is all it takes given we have self-ID in practice if not in law. And it’s not just about the possibility of attacks, it’s about having the security of knowing you’re not likely to come face to face with a man in a space that should be reserved for women. Otherwise you’re also at risk of traumatising sexual assault and DA survivors, many of whom suffer PTSD and are triggered by encountering strange men unexpectedly in places you would not expect them to be, and excluding women of certain faiths.

I have sympathy for any TW who feels unsafe in the Gents (although there is very little evidence of TW being attacked in the men’s toilets) but the answer is third spaces or for them to work on educating men, not to colonise women’s spaces and in doing so, render them mixed sex.

If I am understanding PPs correctly (hope so) there are males self identifying as females who have no dysmorphia and no genuine trans feelings/plans but just want to infiltrate women's spaces for their own ends.

Its impossible to tell the difference between a genuine transwomen and a man who is lying for whatever reason.

Then there are cases like this. A clearly unwell individual, who seems to target women.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9279069/Transgender-beautician-33-jailed-nine-months-barging-gran-ground-London-Bridge.html

Local authorities have to ensure that there is support for all victims of abuse regardless of gender but the majority of services are single sex and people are sorted into the right ones. No one will be prevented from getting support.
In all women support groups we talk about things such as our experiences of rape. Many would choose not to access this support if it was not guaranteed to be single sex. This is not because we are at risk of being harmed but because we would not feel comfortable discussing this in a mixed sex group. The harm that would happen is that women would not access support.

I agree that focusing on the need for single sex refuges and prisons really focuses the minds.

Limp dicked arsehole. Another MRA.

I’m a floating voter - fairly middle of the road I’d say - and I will only be voting for a party which understand that there are two sexes , and can define woman. That was Jo Swinson’s downfall wasn’t it when she couldn’t define what a woman was? Also recently I watched back a YouTube clip of Lisa Nandy being grilled by Piers Morgan on whether she thought it would be fair for Usain Bolt or Floyd Merryweather to self id as women and compete against women. She refused to answer the question and kept dancing around the question - Piers kept on and on for a yes or no answer , but to no avail.
When canvassers call round that’s my main question now to them.

85% of people identifying as TW retain their penis

Wow - I did not know this.

@Tistheseason17

85% of people identifying as TW retain their penis

Wow - I did not know this.

Actually I think it’s higher than that.

Is there a lot of evidence of trans women seeking refuge at women's DV hostels and then committing DV against the women there?

This is some evidence yeah, see court cases in Canada.

But that's not the point, really, is it? I think you need to ask yourself why you think women should no longer be allowed to have single sex spaces: prisons, refuges, sports, changing rooms away from male bodies? Are women not entitled to the safety, privacy, dignity and fairness that those spaces provide?
And why would anyone be against third spaces?