Keir Starmer on Sophy Ridge

[EdgeOfACoin]

On just now.

Asked about trans rights. Said that they didn't go far enough and the current process to transition is demeaning.

Criticised both sides (ie TRAs and feminists) for 'tearing lumps' out of each other.

Expressed sympathy for women who were victims of domestic violence but refused to say whether refuges should be single-sex or not (fence-sitting).

Labour will no doubt be watching carefully to see whether the issue has any impact on the SNP in the upcoming election. I daresay they'll then cut their cloth accordingly. Because this is all about spin, and soundbites, and looking progressive, none of them give two fucks about women (or trans people, for that matter), they make that abundantly clear.

@EdgeOfACoin

That podcast sounds interesting, Sophocles.

It is. I’m currently listening to the interview with Andrew Neil, who is a very interesting person.

I have met trans women who are women. Not trying to fit in,not going through a phase - women whose body does not match them and everything they think/feel.

What is a woman?

And what is a woman if the word includes men - what are women's rights/spaces/spaces?

What kind of thoughts and feels do women have?

What does Eddie Izard have in common with me - but not my DH?

Tistheseason no one born male can ever be a woman. It is not possible to change sex. The people you know may hate the sexual characteristics of their male body - and I have genuine sympathy for anyone who feels such distress at themselves, it must be an awful way to feel - but that does not make them a woman, and it does not give them the right to enter spaces segregated by sex as women-only. The only way to become a woman is to be born female and grow to adulthood. You can’t “feel like a woman”, because there is no standard for doing so. We all feel and think and behave in a myriad different ways. What connects us is our biology and the way it is used to oppress us, particularly with regard to our reproductive function. A man who rejects (often toxic) masculinity and wants to express a feminine presentation to the world should be supported with accessible and robust therapy if his body dysmorphia is so traumatic for him, should not be discriminated against for wishing to embrace feminine stereotypes and should have the same rights and protections as any other man. But he is still not a woman, nor will he ever be so, and he is not entitled to the spaces, rights and specific opportunities reserved for women - which women fought for - to try to redress the inequality of our oppression.

It used to be that part of the assessment required before a doctor would agree to refer someone for gender alignment surgery involved the individual acknowledging that they understood they could not actually change sex. It is no kindness to sell people a lie.

If transpeople started a campaign for third spaces I would get behind them willingly.

If transpeople started a campaign for third spaces I would get behind them willingly

This, to me, actually gets to the crux of the matter, if transwomen understood the discrimination that women face because of our sex then transwomen would never dream of trying to access women’s facilities/resources/spaces. After all what sort of person tries to tell women that their boundaries are wrong ?

And if we weren’t so busy trying to ensure that women’s rights weren’t being roll backed then I’m sure that there would be plenty of us willing to help campaign for facilities/spaces/resources for transpeople.

As someone who’s politically active and has some insight into how parties work, I just wanted to back up what someone said earlier. Stop talking about toilets and talk about women’s sports instead. The issue is much easier to grasp when you frame it as the disadvantage suffered by women who have to compete against someone with a male physique. Crucially, men will understand the issue because they’re interested in and care about sports whereas they really don’t want to think about why women need privacy in a segregated toilet. Most trans women aren’t a threat in a women’s toilet and it IS exclusionary to ask them to use the men’s. As long as the issue is only framed in those terms, people won’t ‘get it’. Wherever you hear people talk about TWAW, ask them what they think about sports. Ask your MP what they think.

Trans rights has become a defining issue for the younger generation - it’s incredibly important to them. It’s the equivalent of banning nuclear weapons or protesting against the Iraq War for earlier generations. I honestly don’t know why, when there are so many glaring examples of inter-generational unfairness for them to get mad about, but it’s not for the older generation to tell them what to care about. But it means that political parties are hamstrung - they can’t even discuss it.

There’s an interesting thread by Ailbhe Rea of the New Statesman where you can see how the issue appears to a well-informed young person. See her bewilderment about why you’d want to exclude trans women from women’s loos: twitter.com/pronouncedalva/status/1363105185585893376?s=21

Incorrect, spinless, and so fucking patronizing. He might as well have said 'Now now children, behave and play nicely with each other!', as if there's any parity in this.

I say, look at the upcoming local elections. Many of us must have a Local Police Commissioner election coming up in May.

If you don't strongly favour one candidate over another for the police commissioner, scrawl none of the above- #LabourLosingWomen on it.

Someone from each party reviews spoiled votes so they can agree they are spoils.
If we all agree what slogan we're going to use, we can send a signal that way.

Yes, Ailbhe Rea is confused, mainly because she has a very narrow concept of what ‘trans’ means.

“Trans people are such a small minority, with complex healthcare needs, and best practice for providing them with care is something that staff do require guidance on.”

She seems unaware that trans also includes cross dressers and gender conforming non binary people.

I do however agree that the toilet issue is difficult to explain to people who genuinely don’t care about mixed sex access.

Gobsmacking that in that thread the Guardian comes in for a lot of criticism for spreading “legitimate concerns” transphobia - is there a special edition of the Guardian that prints these weird articles that only trans rights activists get to see??

Even more astonishing:

“The BBC will never hire or respect trans folks, the BBC is the 2nd most transphobic organization in the UK, 2nd to the NHS..the worlds most transphobic health provider.”

This despite the BBC:

• employing an unrepresentatively high percentage of trans people

• wanting to make sure more are promoted to positions of influence

• broadcasting a relentless stream of trans-positive articles, programmes and CBEEBIES propaganda.

Ailbhe Rea’s thread is measured but could just as easily be negatively characterised as “legitimate concerns” misogyny, mirroring the complaints in the comments of ”legitimate concerns” transphobia in the Guardian.

She does strike me as someone who might be prepared to listen to the other side of the “Brighton NHS chest feeding” issue. It’s clear that at the moment she believes that “the other side” is just ignorance + misrepresentation of the issue. Which does make a pleasant change from ”nazi, racist, T€RFs!!”

She says that she “never sees journalism by trans people” - she could look a bit harder. Or maybe she is discounting articles by “the wrong kind of trans”?

mobile.twitter.com/PronouncedAlva/status/1363105185585893376

She’s a.very thoughtful and smart journalist which is why I think her lack of insight into “transphobia” is so telling. For her, feminism is about being mean to transwomen and she hasn’t grasped the bigger issue. This is why I’m saying that the bigger issue is better illustrated by women’s sports than toilets.

And please stop saying that spoiling your ballot will be noticed by the political parties and is an effective form of protest. It really isn’t. If you’re not voting for a candidate because of their stance on this issue you have to write to them and tell them so.

It’s not us who bang on about toilets though it’s TRA who like to start and keep all discussion there. “We just want to pee in peace you big feminist meanies”

We say time and time again on here and when femisinsting happens in the wild on AIBU, that toilets are the least of the problems. Sports most definitely is one as is taking up places on programmes designed to increase representation of women. Refuges and prisons too.

We keep trying to move the discussion away from toilets and TRA that drag it back all the time

Treats, I agree, but I think you'll find it is the TRAs who continually drag the conversation round to toilets.

You see it on here all the time - a conversation will start about something unconnected with toilets and someone will turn up to derail the thread and make it about toilets.

It's the subject TRAs know they will gain the most support for.

Obviously toilets are important, but it's not really fair to say that the focus on toilets is due to GC feminists. It is down to the TRAs and they know what they are doing.

Cross post, buscuits!

@Treats

She’s a.very thoughtful and smart journalist which is why I think her lack of insight into “transphobia” is so telling. For her, feminism is about being mean to transwomen and she hasn’t grasped the bigger issue. This is why I’m saying that the bigger issue is better illustrated by women’s sports than toilets.

You are make a very good point about AR, but she is also very young and I think that influences her ‘just be kind’ thinking.

She also does that thing where she argues against the worst argument. I agree that if you ask most young women whether they are worried about seeing a penis they will just say they don’t want to see anyone’s genitals and wonder why the obsession with penises.

Women still need sex based rights and gender is still a harmful social construct.

Quite agree that the discussion is about toilets because that’s what the trans rights campaigners want. Which is why I’m saying that if you want to campaign on it, you need to talk about women’s sports. Ask your MPs specifically about it.

AR’s thinking is quite typical of someone in their twenties ime - can’t or won’t see the other side of the argument. But their strength of feeling on this issue is why Sir Keir can’t simply say that women need sex-based provision.

I think people are being unnecessarily discouraged here

He didn't say TWAW which was quite significant

Keir is a grown man and far from poor. If he cant take the heat over this debate how the fuck does he expect us to? I dont have his resources, I dont have a fallback job to go to. He has much better options if he gets "cancelled" much better than my options if I were to get "cancelled" If he cant stand up for women now and show this shitshow up for the misogyny it is, why would I be inclined to vote for him in several years time?

[quote Treats]As someone who’s politically active and has some insight into how parties work, I just wanted to back up what someone said earlier. Stop talking about toilets and talk about women’s sports instead. The issue is much easier to grasp when you frame it as the disadvantage suffered by women who have to compete against someone with a male physique. Crucially, men will understand the issue because they’re interested in and care about sports whereas they really don’t want to think about why women need privacy in a segregated toilet. Most trans women aren’t a threat in a women’s toilet and it IS exclusionary to ask them to use the men’s. As long as the issue is only framed in those terms, people won’t ‘get it’. Wherever you hear people talk about TWAW, ask them what they think about sports. Ask your MP what they think.

Trans rights has become a defining issue for the younger generation - it’s incredibly important to them. It’s the equivalent of banning nuclear weapons or protesting against the Iraq War for earlier generations. I honestly don’t know why, when there are so many glaring examples of inter-generational unfairness for them to get mad about, but it’s not for the older generation to tell them what to care about. But it means that political parties are hamstrung - they can’t even discuss it.

There’s an interesting thread by Ailbhe Rea of the New Statesman where you can see how the issue appears to a well-informed young person. See her bewilderment about why you’d want to exclude trans women from women’s loos: twitter.com/pronouncedalva/status/1363105185585893376?s=21[/quote]
I think that was me - I dropped off the thread because it seemed like I was a lone voice.

I see this on other issues as well - there seems to be an assumption that political parties (especially Labour) should just "stand up" for whatever the particular person believes and not pay any regard to whether that is electorally possible or whether anything practical is achieved.

Ultimately, are we more likely to protect some sex based rights if Keir becomes PM (even if he does do some mealy mouthed stuff to please TRAs) or is it better to join with the Starmer Out mob and ensure that any future Labour PM (and there will be one eventually) is completely on the side of the TRAs?

Ultimately, are we more likely to protect some sex based rights if Keir becomes PM

In some ways I think that on this issue the process of writing workable legislation instead of mouthing platitudes would be good for the Labour Party.

Then I look at what is going on in Scotland.

@merrymouse

Ultimately, are we more likely to protect some sex based rights if Keir becomes PM

In some ways I think that on this issue the process of writing workable legislation instead of mouthing platitudes would be good for the Labour Party.

Then I look at what is going on in Scotland.

Scotland's quite interesting because I'm sure that Labour is noting the problems the SNP are having on the issue. It's a good opportunity to "encourage" the party to have a more nuanced stance as in Scotland it may well bring an electoral benefit..

I'm kind of sure there's a lot of people here assuming I'm some kind of plant from Keir's PR team - I really am not. If there was a more pro-Europe, pro Women's Right potential Leadership candidate who could win a leadership contest and then a General Election I'd be behind them 100%. But there just isn't. We either try to push Keir in a more GC direction by showing that will bring electoral rewards or we say "it's all or nothing" and he decides that making concessions to us doesn't bring him any benefits.

@gardenbird48

Lols. I thought over the years many of the Tories have been caught out in the Daily Mail for Crossdressing. Ha ha

Can you name any? The only cross dresser I have seen reported on recently is that Labour councillor who was sent to prison after being caught with vast quantities of csa images.

The cross dressers of the world used to be regarded as just that. Nothing whatsoever to do with trans or women's rights.

Conservatives may well have had and still have a ton of cross dressing men. What their membership do not buy into, by and large, is that those men are the most oppressed minority EVAH and need to be applauded and cosseted at every step, at women's expense.

I'll vote for the party that is strongest on women's rights.

The example of RISE in Brighton and Hove losing funding because it didn't do enough for the male victims of violence (even though its focus was female victims) is a warning. It's no good saying 'The Tories will cut funding from women's shelters' if that is going to happen under left wing parties too.

It's quite simple: the more Keir does to protect women's rights, the more likely I am to vote for his party.

The more Boris does to protect women's rights (yeah, I know) the more likely I am to vote for the Tories.

Why should I vote for concessions or scraps from Labour if Liz Truss is in the other corner, holding the line on this?

Is there a lot of evidence of trans women seeking refuge at women's DV hostels and then committing DV against the women there? Offhand, I believe Katie Dolatowski was allowed into a women's refuge.

As for Starmer, a PP asked us to use our special antennae to receive his secret bat signal. I'm not here to desperately calibrate my interpretation of what Starmer might have really meant but couldn't say. He's a grown adult and is the current LotO. Either he says what he means or he is unfit. I've got more courage than him, I even tweet under my real name. How dare he be so spineless. But as the member of a class of humans/support units (delete as appropriate) who, despite no one being able to know what we are, mysteriously weren't able to vote a mere century ago, I'll just reference Susan B Anthony and have done with it. Unless I want to report Starmer to Wirral Police for offensiveness, my PCC seems to approve of that although it'll be fun to hear her justification when she wants reelecting in a couple of months.

@Gurufloof

I think people are being unnecessarily discouraged here

He didn't say TWAW which was quite significant

Keir is a grown man and far from poor. If he cant take the heat over this debate how the fuck does he expect us to? I dont have his resources, I dont have a fallback job to go to. He has much better options if he gets "cancelled" much better than my options if I were to get "cancelled" If he cant stand up for women now and show this shitshow up for the misogyny it is, why would I be inclined to vote for him in several years time?

I agree and would add that he's also not just some random bloke too. He's the leader of the opposition. It's his literal job to understand the consequences and political ramifications of policies and have the balls to campaign for the right ones.