Is this going to end? If so, when? What will be the catalyst?

[SybillTrelawney]

Sorry if these are pointless questions — I realise no one really knows the answers. But I need some hope, because I'm feeling so fed up. The attitude many of my colleagues have to gender and sex scares me, and the way that all diversity initiatives at work now revolve around gender ideology (while ignoring women) leaves me in a constant state of low-level anger. I just can't see an end to it, and I'm wondering what it will take for there to be a big shift in attitude amongst the sort of people who are sustaining the current climate of fear.

There are plenty of places that have had trans rights in place for years and none of these things have happened. And that's a good thing, I hope everyone agrees.

Just to be clear, you're saying that you hopes everyone agrees that it's a good thing that women haven't been able to fight for their rights?

I'm not in England so I have no idea how DBS works, but where I am when I had to have clearance for various positions of trust, I had to disclose all my former names. If DBS know all these things already does it work differently in England? Are there no forms to fill in? Does someone just do the check on you without your knowledge?

@jj1968

Sued by detransitioners for encouraging them when they were children, to start on a path of experimental regime of drugs, hormones and possibly leading to surgery based on no clinical evidence of benefit, leading to brittle bones, sexual dysfunction, possibly impairment of brain development, induced menopause and hysterectomy in their 20s and infertility to mention some of the more common outcomes.

But there's hardly any detransitioners. Kiera Bell seems to be the only one in the UK who actually had treatment prior to 18. Puberty blockers have been used since the 1990s in some places, I'm not aware of any law suits. I don't understand where people think all these lawsuits are going to come from, there's so few people who've actually had this treatment and they all seem pretty pleased about it. If there's law suits it's more likely to be trans kids at the Tavistock now who are being refused treatment with lifelong consequences against international best practice guidelines. I know someone who tried to get blockers around 2000 who is still furious she had to go through male puberty when it could have been easily prevented. She'd sue if she could, but an avalanche of law suits from detransitioners seems hugely unlikely.

Who told you that? Stonewall? Mermaids? They're lying to you. Trans lobbying organisations like to say only 1% of those who transition, detransition. But this is based on a study of ADULTS who were STILL CLIENTS at Charring Cross.

They didn't track down a single ex client and none of them were child transitioners as far as I know. Nor did they speak to them. They looked at their files and noted any comments about regret. The study shows an instant regret rate, effectively. But, they call it a detransition rate which is totally disingenuous. They are lying to you. Stonewall and friends don't want to admit that detransitioned people exist in any large numbers as it's inconvenient for them.

I know four detransitioners / desisters personally, in real life. I can think of of several dozen on social media. And there are about 17,000 members on r/detrans (on Reddit).

If you are in the trans community you are unlikely to know many vocal detransitioners as they tend not to feel accepted by the trans community and leave.

People argue all kinds of things, doesn't mean anyone takes them seriously

Well, that's encouraging - hang on, wait...

Regarding the “end point” I think there are so many threads to this issue, and it affects so many countries, that the end point for each will have to be unraveled separately and there will not be a coherent world-wide moment when everything is concluded.

But I would predict that the end point for the western medical complex will be that the whole industry of medical transition will come to be seen as harmful and will become as controversial as lobotomy.

An increasing number of young women are coming forward who are distressed that their bodies have been permanently masculinified by testosterone and others who now face a lifetime of disfiguring chest scars where their breasts have been removed.

The court cases that will come will shine a light, initially on the transitioning of youth, but ultimately on the whole industry. The evidence they are relying on is not so much evidence as anecdote. The patients who continue with treatment are asked how it’s going and are (of course) relatively positive. This is not how evidence based medicine works. There have been no control groups or randomised trials to compare how those people would have fared with different treatments. New psychological approaches that have come to prominence in psychiatry (one example: CBT) have not been tried as the medical pathway, and the argument that this is not a mental health problem, has held such sway that nothing else has been allowed.

My prediction would be that the destruction in the wake of the backlash regarding the transition of children will be so overwhelming that the whole complex will come under scrutiny. The lack of sound evidence behind the process will be noted with shock and the incredibly rapid growth of a barely regulated industry will become a massive scandal.

I am aware that doctors in the US have taken unusual legal steps to try to ensure they cannot be found liable, but I suspect that many young women who are being treated at colleges will be the daughters of people with enough power that ways will be found.

I think that when the medical industry scandal hits, it will send shockwaves through the whole of transactivism. I don’t know if it will be the instigating factor to the reassertion of reality that Barracker predicts, but if nothing else happens first, this will be a major turning point.

As those who have taken puberty blockers and cross sex hormones grow up the superficial nature of the process will become more apparent. As their friends grow and mature and enjoy healthy sex lives they will, sadly, be stuck in a permanent child like state
I cannot imagine why adults think it is fine to remove future sexual function for children. That is massive
It is all about the look and that becomes less important as you get older and it's so boring. Who wants to spend hours listening about someone else's identity. As the glow of youth fades and they lose followers on Instagram or YouTube what will be left for them
I think the same about those who obsess over looks and surgery

Nothing is more uncool than the things a previous generation considers cool.

You can already see on social media a trend for younger activists on the issue - and more POC. I see a fair few people saying things like "I spoke to my fifteen year old and was surprised at how GC they were."

Of course gender dysphoria will continue to exist but the ENBY/anime thing will cease to be attractive. It won't be "cool" in ten/fifteen years.

Lurkers - please note that whenever anyone claims 'trans x have been doing this for decades' it's misleading, whether deliberately or unintentionally. The 'trans umbrella' lobby groups now support is very, very different from what was understood by the term 'trans' ten years ago, and the widening of this term is about 80% of the issue.

In a similar vein - while 'detransitioners' have historically been rare, the huge increase in teenage girls identifying as transgender is a very recent phenomenon, as is their medicating, because typically this has been an issue affecting those born male. It does no group - not transgender individuals, and not teenage girls - any good to pretend that this isn't something new (or a new manifestation of existing issues).

Child Protection professionals are starting to be brave enough to voice their concerns about the limitations being placed on the treatment of young trans-identifying people.

www.ebswa.org/open-letter-from-ebswa-1

I pray it comes to an end soon before more women are hurt.

The question was, where will it end... Am i almost alone in intense gloomyness? Yes, one would think that the 'frankinstien' medical experimentation on young women should be front page news. Yes one would think that the huge, oddly muscled-up 'women' who will be winning in the Olympics should make some viewers pause for thought? But it won't be commented on by the carefully chosen, 'woke' commentators. Everyone is running s**t scared, heads in the sand, be nice, nothing to see here.

Once the laws are well in place to silence us (Scotland are trying to get this in place right now?) we will be muzzled, thrown out of jobs if we complain and imprisoned for hate speech.

So we have no voice, no work, no money.

So we will then have no other 'employment' but to be forced employed to bear babies as surrogates for those forceful individuals who, oddly, can't bear children because, oddly, they have no uteruses. 'It's their right to have children'. Or possibly pole-dancing, which will liberate us because it's our choice (according to the student's union).

Apart from old crones like me, presumably i will be sent out to work in the fields.

Gilead here we come

Yes it will all unravel, eventually, But not, i think, in my lifetime, unless we can find some way of getting through to enough people to turn the tide.
Sorry for my intense gloom

oldwomanwhoruns

This is my fear too. Authoritarianism and totalitarianism in action. There are ways of making us silent and powerless, there are also ways of making us say things we don’t believe.

Then they have their illogical, reality denying, contradictory system in place for who knows how long before it can be dismantled and women are as you say reduced to brood mares, “entertainment” and domestic servants unless they accept surgery and medication.

On a gloomy Monday I'm tempted to share your mood oldwomanwhoruns. But I try to hang on to all the progress that's being made. Go and take a look at Allison Bailey's site or Fair Play for Women. Thousands of ordinary people chipping in with their £10 to put things right. The comments are heartwarming.
The Brighton hospital language changes (maternity to perinatal etc) stirred up a huge groundswell of opposition from women and men who finally see what is being removed from women.
Keira's judgement - "experimental medicine" on children and finally reinstating that children are unable to consent to such life altering medical practices.
These a significant shifts highlighting how the privileged presence of special interest groups, able to influence medical practice and social change to their own advantage harms others. It won't be quick but I'm trying to hang on to the positivity enabled by exposure and sunlight.

@wellthatsunusual

Have you been following the Keira Bell case?

If I was a betting woman I'd be away placing money on the response to this question being 'I'm not aware of that, I couldn't possibly comment'

Indeed, or, simply no response at all.

This is why, when the house of cards does fall down, so many committed trans activists will be surprised. They won't let themselves consider ideas outside of their bubble, as they've been trained to see them as heresy.

Both Stonewall and Mermaids were invited to intervene in the Keira Bell case, but made such a poor job of submitting evidence that they were not allowed to in the end. Instead of seeing the truth - that when push came to shove, Stonewall and Mermaids had nothing of any substance to add, transactivists are choosing to see this as the court being transphobic by excluding them. It's nothing of the sort, the Judge bent over backwards to try to include them, giving them extra chances to submit after they missed the initial deadline.

Anyone who genuinely cares about children with gender dysphoria should be deeply concerned that the Tavistock were unable to provide any evidence of positive benefits to underpin the clinical practice of giving blockers to children and young people. But transactivists are so convinced that medical transition is the answer, they simply think the court is wrong.

I predict those who think the outcome of the case will be overturned on appeal will be sadly disappointed. There has been no new evidence presented. But the Court of Appeal does sometimes agree to hear an appeal on the basis that it's a contraversial case of public interest and they would like the chance to clarify a point of law. I believe this is what's happening here, Keira's side will win again, and it will be a stronger win given it's a higher court.

This will mean the end of medical transition for most kids in the UK, at least while they're kids. And, as the cure for gender dysphoria is often puberty itself, hopefully the UK can lead the way in finding positive ways to help children suffering distress at their bodies and/or the gender roles society prescribes for them, or coming to terms with being same sex attracted in a homophobic society.

I work with actual children under actual current child-safeguarding guidelines...

The current trans stuff is not it.

Even if you try to be super-compliant (with what trans advocacy groups want), you run into difficulties with the lying-to-the-parents/guardians stuff.

It's a scandal waiting to happen - and I say this as someone raised within the Catholic Church.

Thx @DaisiesandButtercups and @persistentwoman. The OP was so right, we have this constant state of low-level anger, why won't anyone listen? I've tried all my friends, they either now block me for 'homophobia' (wtf? It is NOT homophobia) or just ignore my ravings. Or look the other way and hum very loudly.

I have a good pal who works in 'child safeguarding' who says that she doesn't really see an issue.

It will soon be too late, the laws will be in place and we will be all s***d. The Handmaid's Tale will have come to pass, not because of a mad religion, but because we were all too kind.

the Judge bent over backwards to try to include them

I think there will be burn out as it is gradually found through more and more direct experience that nothing is ever perceived as fair or enough, regardless of how hard people try. That nothing is ever reciprocal and there is never any care in others, just more and more need for others to go on providing regardless of how unfairly they are treated in return. It was what opened my eyes.

The olympics will take many years, probably as long as it took for the doping of female athletes by eastern bloc countries to be stopped. A lot of good female athletes to tried to raise this at the time were disregarded, put down and never got their rightful medals.

What would the end ideally look like to me?

• That Trans people are seen as trans
• that Women aren’t being forced into doublespeak.
• That campaigns against gender stereotypes like LetToysBeToys can continue without harassment.
• That FGM campaigners can continue their work with harassment
• That rape services can continue their work without harassment
• that women in prison are safe from male harassment
• that women can have a female only meeting without harassment
• that female health services are taken seriously and use language everyone can understand

Listing some of the things I’d like to see out I’m reminded why we have to put our energy pushing back against the erroneous statement TWAW because so much of the campaign in that was happening has been silenced by the trans activists

Also important to note what FWR have said from the start: if laws can be quickly and easily swung against one group to the benefit of others, then they can be quickly and easily swung again against other groups.

This is why inequality to right perceived wrongs and this kind of injustice and bias is wrong. It's what was learned in WW2, although the current fashion for ageism is convinced anyone over 20 is past it and has nothing worth while in terms of wisdom to share. Rights have to be universal and applied equally to everyone, regardless, all the time. Even the ones you don't like. Even the ones you don't agree with. You have to have that value of equality and fairness above all else. That is the only way to keep an entire society safe. Discrimination can never be positive.

Because once it is, all you have is the same hope all oppressed, enslaved and worse groups have ever had over the past multiple centuries: the hope that today you're not suddenly in the 'wrong' group. Because it will shift again, and if you've removed other people's rights and protections you have also removed your own.

I’ve experienced Transwomen behaving aggressively towards women in tech for at least 20 years. It’s 17 years since the first tech event where I realised white transwomen outnumbered white women*. And it was hard to miss the transwomen as they made a point of physically excluding women from conversations by standing in front of them. (They were also wearing miniskirts which I’ve never seen a woman wear at a tech meeting)

*Despite the mention of trans being a factor in India for so long the Indian women at that particular tech event meant the balance just tilted back to women rather than transwomen and there were no Indian trans/third sex also no transmen just white transwomen.

Above was in response to ques about how long this has been a phenomenon. I’m unsurprised it started to affect women in technology sooner than others

I remember when being gay was sort of hidden.
At school in early 80's no one mentioned it. I couldn't have cared less who my friend fancied, but my parents while it caring, didn't encourage it. To be honest it was bands who seem to have helped the most, people liked the person regardless of sexual preferences.
Gay marriage was this big vote winner, and was passed rather quickly into law. Yes I do have a point.
It's going to take something main stream to cause a reaction. Hollywood can Transpeople in certain roles. A short male lead against a tall muscled female won't look romantic. So your never going to have trans on the large screen or TV , this means there won't be the idols to follow, There won't be Transwoman running around football pitches on Sky. The role models for the young will just not emerge.

I’ve experienced Transwomen behaving aggressively towards women in tech for at least 20 years. It’s 17 years since the first tech event where I realised white transwomen outnumbered white women. And it was hard to miss the transwomen as they made a point of physically excluding women from conversations by standing in front of them. (They were also wearing miniskirts which I’ve never seen a woman wear at a tech meeting)*

Are you in the U.S, Disillusioned?

Above was in response to question about how long this has been a phenomenon. I’m unsurprised it started to affect women in technology sooner than others

So much of the contemporary TRA movement does seem to originate in male centric tech worlds.

I'd be very interested to hear more of your observations and experiences in this world.

What's funny is Tech is male dominated, so in choosing to present as female, the males Will and do bypass the TW, which leads the TW to react like the male inside and become more aggressive in their actions.
The TW then hits the glass ceiling and suddenly finds the downside.