Is this going to end? If so, when? What will be the catalyst?

[SybillTrelawney]

Sorry if these are pointless questions — I realise no one really knows the answers. But I need some hope, because I'm feeling so fed up. The attitude many of my colleagues have to gender and sex scares me, and the way that all diversity initiatives at work now revolve around gender ideology (while ignoring women) leaves me in a constant state of low-level anger. I just can't see an end to it, and I'm wondering what it will take for there to be a big shift in attitude amongst the sort of people who are sustaining the current climate of fear.

Hmm well I have not seen any evidence of that. I recognise him currently as one of the few men with balls enough to stand up for women. They are few and far between.

I can agree that it is bad to out people who not are “out”.

But I think there is something fundamentally wrong with a lesbian/gay dating site which doesn’t allow you to filter potential dates based on biological sex.

And I am very grateful to Glinner for standing up for women and girls!

I can't get past the pics of effigies of women being hung.

That's completely beyond the pale, next level awful.

Yep, I agree. Sickening MRA response to being told 'no' by women.

@NiceGerbil

I can't get past the pics of effigies of women being hung.

That's completely beyond the pale, next level awful.

Yet this is not condemned is it? Just groups that openly threaten and abuse women being recommended and gender critical women being criticised for not feministing correctly.

Ah well - when someone shows you who they are, believe them.

And that will be when they can see their reputation is at risk, or they stand to loose money eg through being sued.

Sued for what?

@jj1968

And that will be when they can see their reputation is at risk, or they stand to loose money eg through being sued.

Sued for what?

Sued by detransitioners for encouraging them when they were children, to start on a path of experimental regime of drugs, hormones and possibly leading to surgery based on no clinical evidence of benefit, leading to brittle bones, sexual dysfunction, possibly impairment of brain development, induced menopause and hysterectomy in their 20s and infertility to mention some of the more common outcomes.

Have you been following the Keira Bell case?

For a start, I mean.

I'm sure once this starts to unravel there will be lots of court cases coming out of the woodwork.

Female prisoners assaulted by transwomen might sue the government for putting them at risk, perhaps. Women might sue for lost opportunities due to tranwomen being given places meant for women, if a legal approach can be found.

At the moment the court cases are about points of law. But given time, they'll be about personal injury and that's when organisations such as "Stonewall champions" etc will start getting cold feet in my opinion.

Have you been following the Keira Bell case?

If I was a betting woman I'd be away placing money on the response to this question being 'I'm not aware of that, I couldn't possibly comment'

@justanotherneighinparadise

I think there will only be changes when what’s happening is ‘felt’ on the ground. It’s really easy to #bekind when it has no real impact.

It’s going to take the visual of sports becoming dominated by trans women. Toilets becoming mixed sex across the board. The word ‘woman’ being replaced by ‘person who’. At some point there will be a momentum and anger and then the pendulum will start to swing again 🙄

But we'll have lost our rights by then - and it would then seem 'transphobic' and regressive to try to regain them. I just can't see this ending at all - I feel very very despondent about it all at present.

I think younger generations will object.
My 15 year old is difficult about this but I know a 12 year old and her view is totally different. A teacher told them that in the future babies won't be identified as a sex . All the girls objected
They are also getting very vocal about their rights to single sex spaces
They give me hope

@HighHeelBoots

I think younger generations will object. My 15 year old is difficult about this but I know a 12 year old and her view is totally different. A teacher told them that in the future babies won't be identified as a sex . All the girls objected They are also getting very vocal about their rights to single sex spaces They give me hope

That's really good to hear.

Sued by detransitioners for encouraging them when they were children, to start on a path of experimental regime of drugs, hormones and possibly leading to surgery based on no clinical evidence of benefit, leading to brittle bones, sexual dysfunction, possibly impairment of brain development, induced menopause and hysterectomy in their 20s and infertility to mention some of the more common outcomes.

But there's hardly any detransitioners. Kiera Bell seems to be the only one in the UK who actually had treatment prior to 18. Puberty blockers have been used since the 1990s in some places, I'm not aware of any law suits. I don't understand where people think all these lawsuits are going to come from, there's so few people who've actually had this treatment and they all seem pretty pleased about it. If there's law suits it's more likely to be trans kids at the Tavistock now who are being refused treatment with lifelong consequences against international best practice guidelines. I know someone who tried to get blockers around 2000 who is still furious she had to go through male puberty when it could have been easily prevented. She'd sue if she could, but an avalanche of law suits from detransitioners seems hugely unlikely.

The Bell v Tavistock judgement can be found here: www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Bell-v-Tavistock-Judgment.pdf

@jj1968

Sued by detransitioners for encouraging them when they were children, to start on a path of experimental regime of drugs, hormones and possibly leading to surgery based on no clinical evidence of benefit, leading to brittle bones, sexual dysfunction, possibly impairment of brain development, induced menopause and hysterectomy in their 20s and infertility to mention some of the more common outcomes.

But there's hardly any detransitioners. Kiera Bell seems to be the only one in the UK who actually had treatment prior to 18. Puberty blockers have been used since the 1990s in some places, I'm not aware of any law suits. I don't understand where people think all these lawsuits are going to come from, there's so few people who've actually had this treatment and they all seem pretty pleased about it. If there's law suits it's more likely to be trans kids at the Tavistock now who are being refused treatment with lifelong consequences against international best practice guidelines. I know someone who tried to get blockers around 2000 who is still furious she had to go through male puberty when it could have been easily prevented. She'd sue if she could, but an avalanche of law suits from detransitioners seems hugely unlikely.

International best practice guidelines? Are you talking about WPATH?

Best practice should be properly evidence based with proper research. Which is what the Tavistock claimed they were doing with their Early Intervention study. But the evidence from that seems quite low quality and doesn't back up the claims that it's the best strategy (particularly for girls).

I think something horrific will have to happen before a massive turning point is reached. Eg a child murdered by a sex offender in a position of trust because they were able to sidestep safeguarding checks by not being obliged to disclose their 'deadname'

But you can't sidestep anything. You can go through the sensitive applications process which will mean your former name will not be ppear on your DBS for employers to see but that doesn't mean any crimes committed prior to your name change will be ignored. You can see the info on this here: www.gov.uk/guidance/transgender-applications

[quote jj1968]I think something horrific will have to happen before a massive turning point is reached. Eg a child murdered by a sex offender in a position of trust because they were able to sidestep safeguarding checks by not being obliged to disclose their 'deadname'

But you can't sidestep anything. You can go through the sensitive applications process which will mean your former name will not be ppear on your DBS for employers to see but that doesn't mean any crimes committed prior to your name change will be ignored. You can see the info on this here: www.gov.uk/guidance/transgender-applications[/quote]
You sound spectacularly naïve. You're the one who is always telling us that transwomen pass as women. If they pass as women as you claim, and there is no chance that anyone would guess they were born male, as you claim, why would they feel the need to disclose their previous male name if they have a criminal record? And there are people who have been arguing for the right to be treated as a whole new person and for previous crimes to effectively 'belong to someone else'.

@NiceGerbil

I can't get past the pics of effigies of women being hung.

That's completely beyond the pale, next level awful.

Here is the document Carmen Calvo signed, which was responded to by the lynching of an effigy of her

https://womansplaceuk.org/2020/07/16/statement-spanish-socialist-party-sex-based-rights/amp/?

Quite the overreaction, imvho.

If they pass as women as you claim, and there is no chance that anyone would guess they were born male, as you claim, why would they feel the need to disclose their previous male name if they have a criminal record?

Because DBS will know. It's not like you can just change your name and DBS will never know anything about it, if that were the case the system would be broken and trans people would be the least of anyone's worries.

And there are people who have been arguing for the right to be treated as a whole new person and for previous crimes to effectively 'belong to someone else'.

People argue all kinds of things, it doesn't mean anyone takes them seriously. There will be no murders and subsequent court cases due to trans people manipulating DBS checks, and even in the vanishing unlikely event someone managed to work out how to do that then any law suit would be on the failures of the administrative system not the fact people are allowed to change their gender.

I hate to break it to you but there aren't going to be floods of court cases brought be detransitioners, or convicted murderers dodging DBS checks, or a trans gold medal clean up at the Olympics or cases brought due to attacks on women or anything else. There are plenty of places that have had trans rights in place for years and none of these things have happened. And that's a good thing, I hope everyone agrees. It sometimes feels like some people are desperate for these awful consequences to happen just so they can say I told you so.

I hate to break it to you but there aren't going to be floods of court cases brought be detransitioners, or convicted murderers dodging DBS checks, or a trans gold medal clean up at the Olympics or cases brought due to attacks on women or anything else. There are plenty of places that have had trans rights in place for years and none of these things have happened. And that's a good thing, I hope everyone agrees. It sometimes feels like some people are desperate for these awful consequences to happen just so they can say I told you so.*

Karen White alone sexually assaulted 4 women. How many acts of violence are acceptable collateral damage in your view?

Women live with the awful consequences of weak safeguarding, badly funded services and a shit legal system right now. Its not getting any better for us.
Do excuse us for carrying on despite your reassurances. Thing is, we know that if we dont keep pushing our rights go backwards.