Is this going to end? If so, when? What will be the catalyst?

[SybillTrelawney]

Sorry if these are pointless questions — I realise no one really knows the answers. But I need some hope, because I'm feeling so fed up. The attitude many of my colleagues have to gender and sex scares me, and the way that all diversity initiatives at work now revolve around gender ideology (while ignoring women) leaves me in a constant state of low-level anger. I just can't see an end to it, and I'm wondering what it will take for there to be a big shift in attitude amongst the sort of people who are sustaining the current climate of fear.

@Justhadathought

I’ve experienced Transwomen behaving aggressively towards women in tech for at least 20 years. It’s 17 years since the first tech event where I realised white transwomen outnumbered white women. And it was hard to miss the transwomen as they made a point of physically excluding women from conversations by standing in front of them. (They were also wearing miniskirts which I’ve never seen a woman wear at a tech meeting)*

Are you in the U.S, Disillusioned?

I’m in the UK

@Whythesadface

What's funny is Tech is male dominated, so in choosing to present as female, the males Will and do bypass the TW, which leads the TW to react like the male inside and become more aggressive in their actions. The TW then hits the glass ceiling and suddenly finds the downside.

They TW gets treated as a special type of person who the men who find women difficult to talk to can talk to and pretend they don’t find women scary. The TW I’ve seen behave aggressively towards the women and are gentle with the men.

The glass ceiling is reinforced by need for maternity leave and having to leave the office to collect children from school and being the person the school rings when children are ill. I don’t see that being a problem for TW.

I was just thinking my friend in HR.
He said they are keep on TW who are already employed in the company, but many have MH issues that require time off.
Meaning TW are not getting big promotions. While they are hiring TM, and promoting as a normal team member, TW are being seen as more of a challenge.. his words not mine, and TW are being weeded out.

jj1968
But there's hardly any detransitioners

How do you know that? James Caspian's proposed research into detransitioning was rejected by Bath Spa university on the grounds of transphobia.

This Sky news report from 2019 certainly suggests there are significant numbers. I wonder why we don't hear about them?

news.sky.com/story/hundreds-of-young-trans-people-seeking-help-to-return-to-original-sex-11827740

There's a new study on detransitioners at Bath University that's been given approval. (A different student, not James Caspian).

The focus is on women who have detransitioned. It'll be interesting to see the results.

twitter.com/JaneLomax13/status/1350490042230308865

But there's hardly any detransitioners

The de-transitioner 'movement' is international. Britain does not exist as in isolation. the push-back is international, and as countries further along the 'path' come up against the consequences, the ripples spread.

Recent article on James Caspian's case

thecritic.co.uk/banned-from-researching-trans/

@Whythesadface

I was just thinking my friend in HR. He said they are keep on TW who are already employed in the company, but many have MH issues that require time off. Meaning TW are not getting big promotions. While they are hiring TM, and promoting as a normal team member, TW are being seen as more of a challenge.. his words not mine, and TW are being weeded out.

Your reasons why they might not get promoted are different to the reasons very capable hard working women hit a glass ceiling.

That glass ceiling gets further reinforced everytime a transwoman in technology titters ‘Oh I can’t understand this I’m just a girl’. I’m unsure whether that or the TW telling women how to woman in technology pisses me off the most. Tech companies have been stonewalled, on the surface women have to be supportive of TW or exit the industry even the ability to stay GC and under the radar is very very limited. The few men who realise how damaging this is talk very quietly about it amongst themselves recognising it will damage their career to speak out publicly.

I should have put the word ‘titter’ in quotes, thats the term both male colleagues and my husband used to me when they saw TW do the ‘I’m just a girl’ and it seems apt in this context.

The glass ceiling is reinforced by need for maternity leave

Yes. The young women who do not see why changing the meaning of the word 'woman' in law to include some men erodes women's rights will find out how valuable those rights were once they're being perfectly legally passed over for promotion due to their vulnerability to pregnancy.

[quote AbsintheFriends]jj1968
But there's hardly any detransitioners

How do you know that? James Caspian's proposed research into detransitioning was rejected by Bath Spa university on the grounds of transphobia.

This Sky news report from 2019 certainly suggests there are significant numbers. I wonder why we don't hear about them?

news.sky.com/story/hundreds-of-young-trans-people-seeking-help-to-return-to-original-sex-11827740[/quote]
I wonder indeed. We don't hear much about the Detrans Advocacy Network either now.

We were supposed to have a flood of detransitioners by now, and yet all that's happened since that story broke is that quite a few of the first wave of detransitioners have retransed - as you would expect if you are familiar with the research.

I think if someone transitions then detransitions then transitions again that would be all the evidence anyone reasonable would need to see that gender identity is not the beginning and end of their issues.

@Justhadathought

But there's hardly any detransitioners

The de-transitioner 'movement' is international. Britain does not exist as in isolation. the push-back is international, and as countries further along the 'path' come up against the consequences, the ripples spread.

More and more detransitioners are requesting that they not be used as pawns in gender critical arguments by the way. Plenty of detrans people are fully supportive of those who transition but recognise it wasn't for them and that's fine. Trans and detrans people are starting to heal old wounds and both communities will be stronger for that.

I am aware that doctors in the US have taken unusual legal steps to try to ensure they cannot be found liable, but I suspect that many young women who are being treated at colleges will be the daughters of people with enough power that ways will be found.

US healthcare is based on informed consent, they will no more have a case than someone who had breast implants and regretted it. I think you need to brace yourself for the fact there will be no flood of court cases and that the vast majority of those who have undergone treatment will go on to lead happy fulfilled lives in their aquired gender. Which is a good thing I'm sure you'll agree, unless you want these young people to be in a state of desperate turmoil?

So when intersex people are asking not be used as pawns in this debate, that is not valid because not all intersex interest organisations have asked?

But when some detransitioners allegedly asks to be left out, this is to be obeyed instantly? Regardless of the high profile lawsuit from Keira Bell, harrowing blogs outlining their regret and evidence of online abuse of those who do speak out against it?

Personally, I think the detransition perspective is much more relevant than the intersex perspective.

@wellthatsunusual

There are plenty of places that have had trans rights in place for years and none of these things have happened. And that's a good thing, I hope everyone agrees.

Just to be clear, you're saying that you hopes everyone agrees that it's a good thing that women haven't been able to fight for their rights?

I think the women of New York and California are still well able to fight for their rights and it's somewhat insulting to claim otherwise.

And there lies the answer to the thread's question as to where ths ends. New York, California, trans rights perfectly normal and accepted, trans kids growing up to be happy trans adults, anti-trans backlashes from both some feminists and the religious right a distant memory. Perhaps a bit of compromise over things like sport or prison but on the whole women's lives barely even touched. That's what the apocalypse some predicts looks like - the Sunshine State with one of the healthiest feminist movements in the world.

US healthcare is based on informed consent, they will no more have a case than someone who had breast implants and regretted it.

Do you believe a 12-year-old girl is mature enough to give fully informed consent to the removal of her healthy breasts?

Do you believe a 12-year-old child is mature enough to give fully informed consent to being sterilised?

The Keira Bell verdict could have far-reaching implications here.

jj1968 - so are there hardly any detransitioners, or lots of them who are asking not to be used as pawns? Which is it?

Lots of detransitioners are speaking out, and do want to stand up and be counted. And no, they're not retransitioning en masse.

Why don't we let them speak for themselves? Here, for example are the three tweets at the top of Watson's account. She's a Scottish detransitioner.

It's not transphobic to safeguard children. It's an obligation.

If you're so ideologically consumed that you'll defend the inadequate care at the Tavistock, that you'll ignore the lacking research, experimental treatment and absence of follow up, then you're a danger to children
Watson
@ImWatson91
·
12h
For any claiming that detransitioners are so small in number that we don't matter: look at r/detrans. Look at the “since I began detransition” stories/photos. You'll be scrolling a while. Tell me we don't matter. Why are detransitioners such a threat to you?

Answer: we're not.
Watson
@ImWatson91
·
20h
So often I interact with people on here who accuse detransitioners of weaponizing their experiences against trans people, and every time they deny wanting to silence detransitioners. Their view boils down to: “Detransitioners should be able speak out, I just don't want them to.”

I still want to know why we should use the anonymous intersex experience which allegedly in some cases are in favour of trans?

And not the many destransitioners who state that they want to be heard?

yet all that's happened since that story broke is that quite a few of the first wave of detransitioners have retransed - as you would expect if you are familiar with the research

I'll hold my hands up and say I am absolutely not familiar at all with the finding that many detransitioners are retransitioning. Do you have a link? (not pink news please.)

I am also a bit confused about the whole “weaponising” argument....

If a woman is raped and therefore does not want to be alone in the same room as a biological male, she is accused of “weaponising her experience”?

If a detransitioner is upset after having a permanently altered voice (testosterone) and a mastectomy on healthy breasts, this person should be quiet and no “weaponising” their experience?

So a rape victim and a person who has been physically altered for life in a distressing way should both be quiet to spare the feelings of a certain group?

I am just trying to understand the reasoning here.

The reasoning is, as I understand it:

Women: Shut up.

Also see the following 'rules of misogyny'

1. Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

10. The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.

11. Whatever women suffer from, it is worse when it happens to men

12. Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent.

I think the women of New York and California are still well able to fight for their rights and it's somewhat insulting to claim otherwise.

I think you’ll find that the election of transwoman Emilia Decaudin into a position reserved for representation of women might have reduced women’s ability to fight for their rights in that area.

Emilia was instrumental in dismantling the 1 male 1 female rule for that particular seat and is now also running for Female seats at District level.

Emilia has a rather unpleasant type of response that only Emilia could make to women that are concerned about their rights and representing undermined.

thevelvetchronicle.com/decaudin-dismantled-1-male-1-female-rule-now-runs-for-district-leader/

@MichelleofzeResistance

Also important to note what FWR have said from the start: if laws can be quickly and easily swung against one group to the benefit of others, then they can be quickly and easily swung again against other groups.

This is why inequality to right perceived wrongs and this kind of injustice and bias is wrong. It's what was learned in WW2, although the current fashion for ageism is convinced anyone over 20 is past it and has nothing worth while in terms of wisdom to share. Rights have to be universal and applied equally to everyone, regardless, all the time. Even the ones you don't like. Even the ones you don't agree with. You have to have that value of equality and fairness above all else. That is the only way to keep an entire society safe. Discrimination can never be positive.

Because once it is, all you have is the same hope all oppressed, enslaved and worse groups have ever had over the past multiple centuries: the hope that today you're not suddenly in the 'wrong' group. Because it will shift again, and if you've removed other people's rights and protections you have also removed your own.

Really important points.

We in old Western democracies have become complacent and the idea that it couldn’t happen here is strong regarding the loss of freedom and imposition of an authoritarian, nonsensical set of theories and ideas. Too many refuse to see what they don’t want to see. Our complacency, turning a blind eye and a degree of arrogance about the supposed robustness of our democracy will be our downfall.

The catalyst I think will be a critical mass of the population realising that they are losing freedoms which they had taken for granted for the benefit of the whimsical feelings of the few.

Weaponising.

There's another silly, made up word mostly used to try and smear someone else's voice.

Gosh there's a lot of them about.