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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is this going to end? If so, when? What will be the catalyst?

351 replies

SybillTrelawney · 21/02/2021 06:58

Sorry if these are pointless questions — I realise no one really knows the answers. But I need some hope, because I'm feeling so fed up. The attitude many of my colleagues have to gender and sex scares me, and the way that all diversity initiatives at work now revolve around gender ideology (while ignoring women) leaves me in a constant state of low-level anger. I just can't see an end to it, and I'm wondering what it will take for there to be a big shift in attitude amongst the sort of people who are sustaining the current climate of fear.

OP posts:
wellthatsunusual · 21/02/2021 10:24

I want to punch her.

And isn't it ironic that if you did punch her (although of course I know that you were using that as a statement of frustration, I don't think you plan to actually do it!) that would be proof of the terrible violent nasty terfs. Whereas if she punched you that would be good wholesome left wing social justice.

IvyTwines · 21/02/2021 10:25

@TheHeathenOfSuburbia

I'm starting to think that hatred of women is so ingrained and deep rooted in so many societies that there will always be something like this popping up.

As soon as the current gender ideology fades away, the fact that so many people consider women to be some sort of semi-human service droid will manifest itself in some other way. There's a cheery thought for a Sunday morning.

Yes, we had the church, with its shaming and hatred of women's freedom and sexuality, and we had the arts/media, always institutionally misogynistic with its casting couch, 'muses', 'groupies', "the pram in the hall is the enemy of art", we've had politics, where good causes have been used as cover to abuse and coercively control young activists, we've had 'lad culture' in the 1990s, oh, don't worry, it's just 'ironic' sexism. What's happening now feels very like the backlash to #MeToo.
Toseland · 21/02/2021 10:25

The problem is that it’s not a grass roots movement. This is being imposed upon the population by groups with lots of money. There are hundreds of full-time staff working to implement this whilst women cannot compete and are just about holding things together in a pandemic. Stonewall needs to fall. We need to stop their agenda in schools.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 21/02/2021 10:29

I agree with @OvaHere that the youth-driven part of the movement will probably fade within a generation - there is nothing so uncool as the last generation's causes. I also think we will get significant pushback against transgenderism once gay men finally wake up to its homophobia.

But the 'sex is a spectrum' bollocks is just one part of a mahoosive problem in society, with all faith in science and a canon of knowledge being replaced by POMO idiocy. It's much, much bigger than the TRA movement - it's anti-vaxx, Donald Trump, and a lot more. I am in my 50s and I don't expect to see it resolved in my lifetime - I fear we have much worse to come.

justanotherneighinparadise · 21/02/2021 10:33

I think there will only be changes when what’s happening is ‘felt’ on the ground. It’s really easy to #bekind when it has no real impact.

It’s going to take the visual of sports becoming dominated by trans women. Toilets becoming mixed sex across the board. The word ‘woman’ being replaced by ‘person who’. At some point there will be a momentum and anger and then the pendulum will start to swing again 🙄

HaroldMeeker · 21/02/2021 10:33

@wellthatsunusual

I want to punch her.

And isn't it ironic that if you did punch her (although of course I know that you were using that as a statement of frustration, I don't think you plan to actually do it!) that would be proof of the terrible violent nasty terfs. Whereas if she punched you that would be good wholesome left wing social justice.

Exactly. She's so infuriatingly smug and complacent that I've had to detatch myself completely before I lose my temper. She absolutely refuses to accept that my issues are with self ID and the potential consequences, she just thinks I'm being mean. She got a PhD in psychology a few years ago, I think she should hand it back.
OvaHere · 21/02/2021 10:34

There is so much money to be made for big pharma and the surgery industry from this, in the way that there wasn't from previous teenage body image issues, that I don't think it'll be any time soon - the estimates are billions of dollars to be made here, with all that political lobbying muscle.

Will lawsuits counteract that? In the USA I guess they'd say it was your personal choice, as it is with huge breast enlargements or whatever, and by downplaying/denying the mental health aspect they may well be making the safeguarding failure argument for lawsuits difficult too. The UK position with the NHS is different - unlike the WHO, we still classify Gender Dysphoria as a mental health issue - and I think it'll stop more here.

Anyone interested in a comparatively similar situation from the past, particularly with reference to how things could play out in the US, should have a read of this book (cheap to buy on Kindle). It's quite eye opening.

www.amazon.co.uk/Normal-Any-Cost-Industrys-Manipulate/dp/1585426830/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

justanotherneighinparadise · 21/02/2021 10:35

Plus the snowflakes will age and they’ll be a new generation screaming out for the next new fad. Or conversely we will enter a new period or pandemics and deprivation and suddenly people will be a little more focused on staying alive. This kind of navel gazing goes hand in hand with having a very privileged life.

reprehensibleme · 21/02/2021 10:35

Agree with shedbuilder that the Olympics will be a catalyst if there are enough trans women competing and winning medals. Was disappointed that the 2020 games were postponed for this reason. I think this will be the issue that will cause people to wake up and start to question the rhetoric because it is just so blatantly unfair.

Gingernaut · 21/02/2021 10:35

I'm waiting for the Olympics.

The trans athletes swamping the podiums with millions of watching men exclaiming "That's a bloke!"

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 21/02/2021 10:51

@Gingernaut

I'm waiting for the Olympics.

The trans athletes swamping the podiums with millions of watching men exclaiming "That's a bloke!"

I wish I could believe that men will care. They manage to live with enormous, systemic abuses of women's human rights at the moment. What makes you think they will be moved to defend women athletes?

I think the Olympics may finally wake up some of the 'Be kind' women - like my SIL who is a keen athlete, but has her head firmly in the sand because her particular sport isn't a target for TW yet. But I very much doubt the Olympics will lead to a general pushback against TRAs.

NonnyMouse1337 · 21/02/2021 10:58

Unfortunately, I don't think there's ever going to be any kind of great swell of public opposition. I sincerely hope that I'm proven wrong.

Most men and women don't really care much for women's rights and opportunities. They might laugh or make critical comments at seeing males compete in women's sports like the Olympics, but that will be it. They know gender ideology is all bullshit, and they will say so in the privacy of their homes, but it doesn't affect them, so why bother.

People will shake their heads at 'progressive' policies going too far, but most won't feel any real urge to do something publicly about it.

The majority has always passively enjoyed and reaped the benefits from the hard work of a minority. That's just how these things go I think. Most people aren't activists or take a huge interest in political issues, not enough to do something about it other than complain anyway.

There are lots of determined women who are contributing in all sorts of ways publicly and privately to make change happen (with some men supporting them too). However, overall they are only a small proportion of the population. The gains made will be a mostly thankless task.

DdraigGoch · 21/02/2021 11:00

I wish I could believe that men will care. They manage to live with enormous, systemic abuses of women's human rights at the moment. What makes you think they will be moved to defend women athletes?
Oh I reckon that most men who watch an event and see a TW on the podium will go "What the f* is a bloke doing in a women's race?". The issue I see is just how many men will be watching the women's events in the first place?

PopperUppleton · 21/02/2021 11:00

Perhaps the delay in the olympics will be a blessing in disguise. There is certainly more awareness of the issues now than there was last summer, so there may be less tolerance for what a lot of people might see as 'cheating'.

Whatwouldscullydo · 21/02/2021 11:12

I think it will be whatever comes first, something awful happening as a result of safeguarding being dismantled, or enough people pulling a swinson, following things through to their logical conclusion and publically looking complete tools , like when a politician went on tv announcing babies were born without a sex.

OvaHere · 21/02/2021 11:19

@NonnyMouse1337

Unfortunately, I don't think there's ever going to be any kind of great swell of public opposition. I sincerely hope that I'm proven wrong.

Most men and women don't really care much for women's rights and opportunities. They might laugh or make critical comments at seeing males compete in women's sports like the Olympics, but that will be it. They know gender ideology is all bullshit, and they will say so in the privacy of their homes, but it doesn't affect them, so why bother.

People will shake their heads at 'progressive' policies going too far, but most won't feel any real urge to do something publicly about it.

The majority has always passively enjoyed and reaped the benefits from the hard work of a minority. That's just how these things go I think. Most people aren't activists or take a huge interest in political issues, not enough to do something about it other than complain anyway.

There are lots of determined women who are contributing in all sorts of ways publicly and privately to make change happen (with some men supporting them too). However, overall they are only a small proportion of the population. The gains made will be a mostly thankless task.

This is true. It takes a lot to make people take to the streets, protest visibly or take some kind of action. Ten million people sat in front of the telly watching the Olympics and muttering "this is ridiculous" changes nothing unless they actually do something.
gardenbird48 · 21/02/2021 11:30

[quote bourbonne]@gardenbird48 ceremonial hangings?! Dare I ask what that was all about? Sad[/quote]
It’s not pleasant. There are two pictures circulating of an effigy of a woman (with the offensive label we don’t use t*), one at a trans pride march of some sort that looked like it was in the uk and the other more recent one in Spain or Portugal where they show a full size representation of us being ‘hung’ from a tree, noose and all.

The caption of the uk picture is ‘the ceremonial hanging of the t*

Quite horrifying but no one seems to be reacting particularly- certainly no proclamations from senior politicians or videos of support.

Thanks Harold - my friends actually asked me why I was worrying myself about women in prisons and sport and public toilets and they don’t understand how self id would affect discrimination law (understandable as it is quite complex but they dismissed it out of hand instead of asking for an explaination).

It hasn’t yet directly affected their life so they can’t see the problem.

Thelnebriati · 21/02/2021 11:43

See, here's the thing. We're all sat here wondering what the catalyst will be because we aren't experts in propaganda. We have direct lived experience, reality has put us in this group, and its the group that is ignored by longstanding agreement.

Barracker · 21/02/2021 11:51

It will end. It's a movement that is trying to get the entire world to reverse reality and keep up the pretence 24 hours a day. Of course it will eventually break, because reality persists and biological sex is unbreakable. It's there when we are conceived, born, grow and die, and it's there when the archeologists dig us up. It's there when we start to menstruate, there when we stop, there when we get pregnant, or fail to, or want to end a pregnancy, or can't, and it's there when we give birth. It's there every time we avoid dark alleys, every time we tell our children who to ask for help when lost. It's there when we call a friend to say we got home safely. It's there when we watch sport. It's there several times a day when we sit down to wee.

Pretending sex isn't real or important or mentionable, and that being female or male is a state of mind is unsustainable long term. It breaks against reality because reality is unbreakable. The show doesn't go on forever. It runs its course.

And actually, I think the people at the very top driving and funding demand and compliance are playing this short term knowing it will break. They are creating a market that they know will burst, and they are creating chaos and disruption because there is nothing more profitable.

As for those who have tried to go along with the lie?
The thinkers: Some will give it up quickly because their mind and their conscience will not be able to tolerate the obvious untruth and unfairness. You are here.
The Self-servers: Some will continue even though they know it is wrong because they want to self-preserve, and they've seen the consequences for dissenters.
The followers: Some will rationalise it by squashing down all their own dissenting thoughts. Everyone good believes this thing. They must be right, so my thoughts must be wrong. I'll just keep following.
The joiners: some will have bought in to the overwhelming zeitgeist and will just leave when it gets tiresome or over. They never were committed either way, but all trends move on and this to them will go the way of skinny jeans and over-contouring as they just get bored and it starts to be too much like hard work to keep it up.
The not-my-problem types: these won't give any of this a second thought until it leaves a burning bag of excrement on their own doorstep and they step in it to put the fire out. Then they care.

In that first group, the thinkers, belong leaders, and influencers, debaters, orators and lobbyists. People who were harmed. People who once believed. People who make it much harder to pretend the lie is universal and harmless. People who persuade and influence. People who provide a space for others to drop the exhausting pretence.

The self-servers who cynically play along now because they think it gives them the best outcome? They will flip position as soon as the backlash against their lies grows too much and they see the balance of benefits has changed. They'll flip, and deny they ever held a different position. And their followers will go with them for safety. The people who don't care all eventually find their own burning bag of excrement on their doorstep.

When it falls it will fall fast. This isn't a hypothetical conspiracy theory like fake moonlandings. This is about every person pretending every hour of every day that your sex which presents you with constant reminders of who you are, isn't there, doesn't matter, and is evil to even mention. And the sex you recognise in others every hour of every day is an act of treason to acknowledge.

The clock has been ticking since the very inception of this ludicrous idea. Sex is real. Everyone knows it. The lie will break.

Blibbyblobby · 21/02/2021 12:06

I think we'll go through it and come out the other side different. The reality of sex-based oppression especially after motherhood won't go away and that will drive the woke generation of females to regroup and create female-focussed support again but it won't be by reclaiming what we currently have and are losing, it will be new things starting in post-trans environment.

They may not use the word Woman any more, but they will use a word or description that has meaning in the new environment. And it won't look exactly like our feminism because it will take trans ideology of female men and male women as the starting axiom but then add sex back as having a meaningful impact separate to gender. After all, breaking the link between biological sex and gendered expectations is common to both feminism and trans ideology...the main issue we have with trans ideology not that it says males can be all the non-biological aspects of Woman, but that by redefining Woman to actually include males it appropriates female rights, opportunities, voices and protections for males even when these are only needed due to biology (including here of course not just physical needs but also the social consequences of having female biology)

These new feminists won't see themselves as feminists. They will probably continue to reject older feminism as just for "TERFs, bigots and transphobes" and feel what they are fighting for is totally different, but they will still bring the fight back to sex again.

gardenbird48 · 21/02/2021 12:28

@wellthatsunusual

I think something horrific will have to happen before a massive turning point is reached. Eg a child murdered by a sex offender in a position of trust because they were able to sidestep safeguarding checks by not being obliged to disclose their 'deadname'
The Deputy Prime Minister of Spain, Carmen Calvo, recently signed a Socialist Party statement in favour of protecting women's sex-based rights, and criticizing the impact of male self-identification into women's spaces.

Today, an effigy of her corpse was hung from a tree.

twitter.com/Slatzism/status/1363334647002910723

Viviennemary · 21/02/2021 12:32

Nobody will be bothered until it affects them. Thats my take.

OvaHere · 21/02/2021 12:39

Your posts are always a joy to read Barracker I always instantly feel better.

Slightly related to some of what you mention. It went largely unnoticed but around the date of the judgement is Allison Bailey's case, Ruth Hunt completely deleted her twitter account. Whether permanently I don't know but it appears to have been in response to some of the pushback around this case including this former Stonewall CEO testing the water (in a very mild way).

twitter.com/BenSummerskill/status/1361056065299894273

MoltenLasagne · 21/02/2021 12:48

I think it will become a very useful issue for the Tories to use against all other parties come the next election which may hopefully prompt a few reverse ferrets.

I can picture it now, Labour pushing a policy the Tories claim is not economically viable, and the Tory respondent saying that Labour want you to believe all sort of fairy tales about magic money trees and "they don't even believe there's such a thing as a woman. Tell me, do you believe a woman can have a penis?" Said Labour representative blathers inconclusive and voila, Tories are shown as the party for common sense versus the Labour Party for students.

Of course we could end up with a miracle, someone sensible in the mold of Alan Johnson takes over, the Labour party remember they're supposed to be on the side of working class people and supporting the economically disadvantaged, and we end up with an Opposition who are actually electable. I won't be holding my breath though.

andyoldlabour · 21/02/2021 13:04

I totally agree with Shedbuilder about the Olympic Games. Had they gone ahead last year, then many people would have been made aware of what is happening. I would love to have seen the reaction of pundits and TV presenters, particularly if they were tying themselves in knots trying to be politically correct.