Is this going to end? If so, when? What will be the catalyst?

[SybillTrelawney]

Sorry if these are pointless questions — I realise no one really knows the answers. But I need some hope, because I'm feeling so fed up. The attitude many of my colleagues have to gender and sex scares me, and the way that all diversity initiatives at work now revolve around gender ideology (while ignoring women) leaves me in a constant state of low-level anger. I just can't see an end to it, and I'm wondering what it will take for there to be a big shift in attitude amongst the sort of people who are sustaining the current climate of fear.

@fastwigglylines

Gender ideology is a pack of cards I mean, a house of cards!

Pack of cards works for me - Alice fan .

fastwigglylines I don't know what you mean by the CEOs having implicated themselves but perhaps it's something we're not allowed to say here.

I said to a GC friend that with Biden's attitude, I don't have much hope. She said the US has so much less influence now, it might not matter.

I have said this many times, but I don't think the Olympics, court cases, the Tavi or any number of protests by women will turn the tide. It will only turn when gay men start to push back against the homophobia inherent in labelling non-gender conforming boys and young men as 'born in the wrong body'.

Unfortunately, misogyny is tolerated in a lot of male gay culture. While it was only women being affected, gay men did not -as a rule - give a fuck (some honourable exceptions, of course). But the more emboldened TRAs become to bang on about genital preferences being transphobic, the more unavoidable it will be for gay men to make the connection between trans activism and homophobia. That is not to say that all trans people are personally homophobic, of course, but a philosophy that stigmatises 'genital preferences' is inherently homophobic.

I said to a GC friend that with Biden's attitude, I don't have much hope. She said the US has so much less influence now, it might not matter.

Just bear in mind that 23 US states are introducing legislation to protect women's and girl's sports - that's a great start, let's hope there are more on the way.

It will only turn when gay men start to push back against the homophobia inherent in labelling non-gender conforming boys and young men as 'born in the wrong body'.

The new lesbianandgaynews.com site was set up by the managing editor of Boyz magazine after bullying from people who were furious that Boyz listened to the LGB Alliance instead of instantly condemning them.

The Boxer Ceiling on Facebook appears to be going strong too. It’s a start.

I might start reading up on how other groups with a very strong ideology used to coerce behaviour end up

The answer is that it never ends well.

it is going to take time, however...I reckon about 20 years for the whole thing to start to unravel. At present most people think it does not impact upon them in their daily life and so are unconcerned. But as more children are transitioned; as more young lesbians de-transition; as legal challenges arise; as the over-confidence and arrogance of activists starts to make itself felt in ever more obvious and public ways, then more people will wake up.

I find a helpful strategy is to talk about 'third spaces' and how that meets everyone's needs without impinging on the dignity, safety and comfort of anyone. People can see the logic in that. Especially people without any obvious investment in any of the debate.

@LunaHeather

fastwigglylines I don't know what you mean by the CEOs having implicated themselves but perhaps it's something we're not allowed to say here.

I said to a GC friend that with Biden's attitude, I don't have much hope. She said the US has so much less influence now, it might not matter.

I just mean that they're both very vocal in their support of medical transition for children and the affirmation approach and neither are particularly savvy. Susie Green strikes me as a useful idiot, someone in way over her head who's had a ton of money chucked at her.

I get the feeling that neither are thinking about whether what they say publicly could be seen to be encouraging children down a harmful path as neither see it like that, they are ideologues.

Yet, both are responsible for organisations where children are encouraged to transition - Gender GP directly through the prescription of blockers and hormones despite Helen Webberly being suspended in this country and Mermaids indirectly, but also I would imagine there is more to come out about their relationship with GIDS.

If I was a detransitioner looking for someone to sue, after GIDS, they would be obvious candidates, if they'd influenced me.

For instance - women losing in sports to people registered male at birth.

Yes, this will be a gateway too.......but women and girls are going to have to lose out even more, first.

@gardenbird48

I said to a GC friend that with Biden's attitude, I don't have much hope. She said the US has so much less influence now, it might not matter.

Just bear in mind that 23 US states are introducing legislation to protect women's and girl's sports - that's a great start, let's hope there are more on the way.

A similar number of states introduced legislation to bring in bathroom bills. Only one made it into law and that was soon abandoned. Don't mistake culture war gestures brought by embittered republicans for a serious attempt at legislative change.

I strongly believe that in twenty years time there will be minimal gender nonsense and an overall 'can you quite believe this was taken seriously' mentality.

It will need to get worse before it gets better though. Most people are still completely naiive to the wider implications. Most people think that this won't affect them.

As it becomes worse and people actually start seeing it affect them, the tide will turn imo.

The court cases happening now are mostly Judicial Reviews. They're about the the lawfulness of a decision or action made by a public body.

Or, they're employment tribunals.

We haven't seen the detransitioners suing for vast sums - yet. But, it'll come. And once organisations associated with gender ideology get a whiff of this, all who were just in it for the woke cookies will be off, quick smart, hoping they don't end up with hefty court bills.

fastwigglylines oh I see! Thanks.

Places that have always had a prominent trans community like India and Brasil

These places always tend to be most censorious over homosexuality. Like Iran too, in which the state sponsors gay men to transition.

The main reason they carry so many gender reassignment surgeries is it's because it's the only country in the region which has Imans who will sanction it and so they've built up a cottage industry as the only place in the Middle East where trans people can get treatment

Homophobia is the reason for this. Homosexuality can carry a death penalty.

@jj1968 re: Glinner ...

"Given his recent behaviour my worry is the elevation of the Glinners of the world is partly where this ends........ ...future holds."

Can you elaborate? Because I don't recognise this description of behaviour.

@FredaFlintstone

I strongly believe that in twenty years time there will be minimal gender nonsense and an overall 'can you quite believe this was taken seriously' mentality.

It will need to get worse before it gets better though. Most people are still completely naiive to the wider implications. Most people think that this won't affect them.

As it becomes worse and people actually start seeing it affect them, the tide will turn imo.

This could be so and I really hope you are right. It needs enough people to wake to it in time before it becomes too set in stone in too many people and too many institutions. I do worry for those who have really been persuaded into this ideology, it won’t be easy for them.

@Viviennemary

Nobody will be bothered until it affects them. Thats my take.

This. And as it won’t effect men nothing will happen.

[quote JoodyBlue]@jj1968 re: Glinner ...

"Given his recent behaviour my worry is the elevation of the Glinners of the world is partly where this ends........ ...future holds."

Can you elaborate? Because I don't recognise this description of behaviour.[/quote]
He's currently outing people whose photos he found on a queer dating site.

Please don't use misogynistic slurs about feminist women who centre women and girls.

@Beamur

I think talk of 'the end' is misplaced. Society keeps changing. Will always keep changing. Where next? Is probably a better question. I hope that there is a better balance ahead. I'd like to see gender dysphoric children better served with support without medication before adulthood. I'd like to see public facilities catering for all people without pitting factions against each other. I'd like to see more women understanding why we still need feminism. I'd like men to be kinder, cede more power and be more aware of their negative impacts on other people. I'd like healthcare to be removed from political influence. I'd really like to stem the flow of anti-science thinking. I'd like to see inclusion without erasure.

All of this please.

@jj1968 you said the behaviour was misogynist? The sites he is looking at are Lesbian sites I believe.

[quote JoodyBlue]@jj1968 you said the behaviour was misogynist? The sites he is looking at are Lesbian sites I believe.[/quote]
It's a site for lesbians, trans people and nonbinary people, founded by a lesbian and which has always welcomed trans women. Yet Graham, a straight man, has decided his views are more important than the women who run the site and is now placing their members at risk by outing users.

Although when it came to misogyny I was thinking of him hounding lesbians half his age on twitter with demands they discuss their sexuality with him despite at least one of them pleading with him to leave her alone.