Is this going to end? If so, when? What will be the catalyst?

[SybillTrelawney]

Sorry if these are pointless questions — I realise no one really knows the answers. But I need some hope, because I'm feeling so fed up. The attitude many of my colleagues have to gender and sex scares me, and the way that all diversity initiatives at work now revolve around gender ideology (while ignoring women) leaves me in a constant state of low-level anger. I just can't see an end to it, and I'm wondering what it will take for there to be a big shift in attitude amongst the sort of people who are sustaining the current climate of fear.

Some great posts here. It's evident that things are starting to very slowly change. It's a tragedy that #nodebate became the mantra with social / legal change behind implemented behind closed doors. Imagine the difference if there had been respectful and open discussion about competing rights from the outset? Imagine if there had been honest discussions about the use of experimental medicine (using the language of the High court) on children and lots of research encouraged?

But this is where we now are and people shouldn't be surprised that people, especially women, are furious about the lack of transparency and honesty - which appears to be continuing relentlessly with gender critical women being blamed. Women did not ask for this.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It will pass. The Cultural Revolution passed, the McCarthy witch hunts passed. At the time it must have seemed to anyone caught in their toils that it was a never-ending nightmare.

Agree.

Yy.

Puritanism too, which todays cancel culture members would have been the leading members of.

Is it the responsibility of Pippa Bunce to destroy gender?

No, but turning up to work in a parody outfit of what they think a professional woman wears does nothing to help women. At all.

Also, nobody 'attacks' trans people on Mumsnet. The women on here are engaged in action to protect single-sex spaces and preserving language from being corrupted to the point that words have no meaning. These issues are important to women and are important for the future of our girls.

At the end of it all, women will be able to fight for other important causes. For instance, the surrogacy issue is an interesting one and new to me. This is another area with a lot of nuance, which deserves greater discussion in society.

Finally, at the end of it all, I would like to see greater tolerance for freedom of speech.

I don't understand why the gender critical movement is so hostile towards those who are arguably some of the biggest victims of socially imposed gender and yet the beauty, fashion and entertainment industries that ram gender down everyone's throat constantly are barely ever even acknowledged let alone criticised

I criticise it all the bloody time, on soc media and in real life. I whine on about it endlessly to anyone who will listen. People either avoid me when I'm talking about it or wind me up and let me go.
You just ain't looking. Btw most women agree with me about the likes of pockets and men actually have to be shown that their pockets are larger.

There will be countries who politically embrace trans rights but you can betya it will be at the expense of women's rights and gay rights.

The country with the most advanced trans rights in the world is probably Argentina. Gay marriage was passed in 2009, four years before the UK and prior to that civil partnerships has been possible in many regions since 2002. On women's rights there is some way to go, but abotion up to 14 weeks was legalised last year and the country has a higher percentage of women in parliament than the UK. The truth is women's rights, LGB rights and trans rights have progressed in harmony with each other pretty much everywhere in the world, and I imagine were trans rights to start becoming regressed then women's right and LGB rights would not be far behind - just look at what's happening in some Eastern European states right now.

The country with the most advanced trans rights in the world is probably Argentina

On women's rights there is some way to go

Got it.

@EdgeOfACoin

The country with the most advanced trans rights in the world is probably Argentina

On women's rights there is some way to go

Got it.

But the direction of travel is clear. Trans rights have not hampered women's rights, they have come alongside them. And if you look at places where the situation is awful for women, such as Saudi Arabia, it is equally horrifying for trans people.

I don't understand why the gender critical movement is so hostile towards those who are arguably some of the biggest victims of socially imposed gender and yet the beauty, fashion and entertainment industries that ram gender down everyone's throat constantly are barely ever even acknowledged let alone criticised.

Thanks for disingenuously erasing many women's lifetimes of work in resisting and dismantling gender stereotypes there.

Just because you are not paying attention to it does not mean it is not happening.

I think it will come to a head at the next election. The Tories will use identity politics to wage a culture war for all its worth. Remember Gordon Brown’s ‘bigoted woman remark’ and how this came to define Labours election campaign in 2010? Well already Labour, the Libs and the Greens have provided more than enough ammunition.

How can a party campaign to be the next government when they do now know - refuse to acknowledge - what a woman is and all that entails. And happily allow, even encourage, the destruction of rights hard earned over 100 years. Labour, the Dems, Greens can ignore us now. Let’s see how that works out for them in the ballot box.

The court cases over the next year will begin to slowly filter in light and then the shutters will be blown wide open. The Keira Bell case in particular will be one pivotal moment - I cannot see the initial decision being overturned - where the electorate will begin to wonder who are these people that are hell bent on harming children.

How easy it it is to dismiss women, forgetting that when mobilised we are a huge power to be reckoned with; we have to bide our time, continue the good fight and keep chipping away.

There will be a moment that comes unexpectedly out of nowhere when the ‘NO, ENOUGH’ shatters the silence and complaisance.

The battle for our rights will continue though; it’s a never ceasing one. This particular attack is but one manifestation, and as one poster wrote ‘it will pass’. And it will pass until the next one in whatever form it will take. And as ever we will be ready.

I think the language around women's health is one element that brings some sunlight - it's very difficult to reconcile the idea of 'cis privilege' with how women are actually treated by modern medicine. That and court cases about underage kids and their parents being lied to about the reversibility of and effectiveness of puberty blockers - it really is shocking how little evidence the Tavistock were able to provide.

I think talk of 'the end' is misplaced. Society keeps changing. Will always keep changing.
Where next? Is probably a better question. I hope that there is a better balance ahead.
I'd like to see gender dysphoric children better served with support without medication before adulthood.
I'd like to see public facilities catering for all people without pitting factions against each other.
I'd like to see more women understanding why we still need feminism.
I'd like men to be kinder, cede more power and be more aware of their negative impacts on other people.
I'd like healthcare to be removed from political influence.
I'd really like to stem the flow of anti-science thinking.
I'd like to see inclusion without erasure.

@Shedbuilder

I think the Olympics will be the turning point. When the whole world sees huge blokes beating women things will change. That will make it real to people who think it's only theoretical. People like Laurel Hubbard will be seen for the cheats they are.

When it's presented by presenters who have been coached in only using authorised vocabulary? When it's highly unlikely and would, I agree, be wholly inappropriate and intrusive to explore how many competitors have: undergone surgical gender reassignment and what that means; artificially altered their hormone profiles and explore what that means for physiology, anatomy, and performance.

I should think it's more likely for almost anyone other than Sharron Davies or Daley Thompson to be invited commentators.

I think a disturbing number of men and women will consider it an appropriate blow to the monstrous regiment of women who've made too many advances with feminism.

I'd be surprised and delighted if the Olympics spurred a national and international debate or understanding about what happens when you remove a class' sex-based protections. However, by then, I expect that a few sporting OR and WR will have been broken, never to be revised.

Just because you are not paying attention to it does not mean it is not happening.

Where are the threads on here, the protests, the letter writing, the crowdfunders?

And I do pay attention, I see lots of third wave feminists challenging stereotypes in popular culture and things like body shaming, as well as organising to challenge male violence whether that's the #metoo phenomena or the campaigns by Sisters Uncut and others to preserve VAWG funding. I don't see much of it in gender critical circles though, at best these things seem secondary.

The argument that women should be focusing on other areas is disingenuous. Women can feminist as they see fit.
Plus, if you choose to look, you'll see that they are indeed quite busy on lots of other topics.

If I could address jj1968 directly, I think what seems to anger you is that as women so many of us do not want to devote our energy to making improvements for people who were born male. That is not the concern of feminism, or feminists. People who were born male do not need to fight to be heard, they already are heard. It's not that I hate trans people, it is that I don't really care. In the same way that, on the whole, men don't really care about me. It's as simple as that.

Agree with @EmbarrassingAdmissions. Olympics coverage will be purged of anyone who might comment on the emperor having no ovaries clothes. You can bet that Martina will only be allowed back on the Beeb on a very tight leash, if at all. Lots of viewers will note that some of the women's medal winners are TW, shrug and carry on, because it doesn't affect them.

I think it's self-deluding to expect a sudden big bang of understanding from the public/MPs, I"m afraid. We are going to have to push back slowly and painfully on 100s of different fronts, and it will be 'two steps forward, one back' for decades. But it can be done. We have already got many in the Tory party and some in Labour and the SNP from "What's the problem with self-ID?" to "This might be a bit of a vote-loser". We have got to keep pushing. And we need to avoid it becoming a Left vs Right issue, as it has in the US. It's a cross-party issue, and we need to keep pushing back at all the parties.

@Beamur

I think talk of 'the end' is misplaced. Society keeps changing. Will always keep changing. Where next? Is probably a better question. I hope that there is a better balance ahead. I'd like to see gender dysphoric children better served with support without medication before adulthood. I'd like to see public facilities catering for all people without pitting factions against each other. I'd like to see more women understanding why we still need feminism. I'd like men to be kinder, cede more power and be more aware of their negative impacts on other people. I'd like healthcare to be removed from political influence. I'd really like to stem the flow of anti-science thinking. I'd like to see inclusion without erasure.

Hear, hear.

I think it will take the NHS saying that there will be no gender identity treatments for under 25s.

Women can feminist as they see fit.

Of course and I hope that applies to third wavers too. My point really is that specifically the gender critical movement seems to very rarely actually criticise or challenge socially imposed gender unless it is through the lens of trans issues. But it's not trans people socially imposing gender, it is all of us to some degree to the benefit of men.

I don't see much of it in gender critical circles though, at best these things seem secondary.

I can't believe I have to explain this but I will anyway. The pushback against self ID is a single issue movement. The reason you only see gender critical groups tweeting or posting or writing blogs about that issue is because that's what those groups are dedicated to. It doesn't mean that the same people who are involved in those movements aren't also involved in other movements.

My friend has had an organ transplant and does a lot of fundraising for that cause. When I donate to her fundraising it doesn't mean that I am forever forbidden from donating to cancer charities as well. Sometimes I even do both, as does she. But I don't pop up on her Facebook feed when she is running a marathon and ask her 'what about the Dogs Trust? They need money too!'. Because that would be ridiculous.

@jj1968

Just because you are not paying attention to it does not mean it is not happening.

Where are the threads on here, the protests, the letter writing, the crowdfunders?

And I do pay attention, I see lots of third wave feminists challenging stereotypes in popular culture and things like body shaming, as well as organising to challenge male violence whether that's the #metoo phenomena or the campaigns by Sisters Uncut and others to preserve VAWG funding. I don't see much of it in gender critical circles though, at best these things seem secondary.

Every one of the things you mention was pioneered by Second Wave feminists (not the Me Too movement itself, but many other campaigns against male violence, e.g. Reclaim the Night). It's great that Third Wavers are continuing some of this work, and finding new ways to raise awareness about it, but don't pretend that they started it.

And Second Wavers are continuing their work now by defending the women's refuges that they set up; protecting women's rights to equal treatment in the workplace, which they won; and defending campaigners against FGM who are under attack from TRAs.

@jj1968

Women can feminist as they see fit.

Of course and I hope that applies to third wavers too. My point really is that specifically the gender critical movement seems to very rarely actually criticise or challenge socially imposed gender unless it is through the lens of trans issues. But it's not trans people socially imposing gender, it is all of us to some degree to the benefit of men.

jj, you're just wrong on this point.

I've seen lots of discussion on here about gender stereotypes, away from the trans debate.

GC feminists are concerned about the word 'woman' losing all meaning and do spend a lot of time on this issue, I agree. That's because without a clear definition of 'woman', women's rights cannot be protected in law.

I'd say that's a pretty big priority for feminists, or it should be.

@wellthatsunusual

If I could address jj1968 directly, I think what seems to anger you is that as women so many of us do not want to devote our energy to making improvements for people who were born male. That is not the concern of feminism, or feminists. People who were born male do not need to fight to be heard, they already are heard. It's not that I hate trans people, it is that I don't really care. In the same way that, on the whole, men don't really care about me. It's as simple as that.

Seconded.

It WILL pass because of us. Because of Keira, Posie, Glinner, Fairplay for Women, Jane Clare Jones, A Woman's Place UK. Who have I missed?

Women working tirelessly and refusing to lie. It will pass because women support women. Do not give up. Get hopeful.

"What seems to anger you is as women". Fixed that for you