Is this going to end? If so, when? What will be the catalyst?

[SybillTrelawney]

Sorry if these are pointless questions — I realise no one really knows the answers. But I need some hope, because I'm feeling so fed up. The attitude many of my colleagues have to gender and sex scares me, and the way that all diversity initiatives at work now revolve around gender ideology (while ignoring women) leaves me in a constant state of low-level anger. I just can't see an end to it, and I'm wondering what it will take for there to be a big shift in attitude amongst the sort of people who are sustaining the current climate of fear.

@Shedbuilder

I think the Olympics will be the turning point. When the whole world sees huge blokes beating women things will change. That will make it real to people who think it's only theoretical. People like Laurel Hubbard will be seen for the cheats they are.

I wouldn't hold out much hope for the Olympics whenever they might happen. A lot of the members of the 2020 teams were already selected and I don't think there were are trans women who've qualified so far, and I'm not sure there's likely to be - if anyone was competing at that level we'd probably have heard of them. Hubbard has a chance of qualifying but it's by no means a done deal, she's carrying quite serious injuries and her performance has been pretty erratic because of it. And even if she does get there it might not be the propaganda boost you're hoping for, Hubbard has absolutely bombed more than once, if she ends up being badly beaten then that will send out a very different message to the world.

@Barracker is spot on. It's a movement based on a house of cards and it's not sustainable. Most people are only just walking up to this. It's not over, the pushback has barely even begun and love them or loathe them the conservatives are in power for another 3 years, are unlikely to tolerate too much internal woke washing and have no viable opposition at the moment, which means there is time. Step 1 imo - expose and defund Stonewall. They are a publicly funded lobby group ffs. They even used to be called the Stonewall Lobby Group before they changed to stonewall UK.

It’s not pleasant. There are two pictures circulating of an effigy of a woman (with the offensive label we don’t use t*), one at a trans pride march of some sort that looked like it was in the uk and the other more recent one in Spain or Portugal where they show a full size representation of us being ‘hung’ from a tree, noose and all.

The caption of the uk picture is ‘the ceremonial hanging of the t*’

Yes, there was also a fringe trans pride event in the US a couple of years ago where the organisers gave out flyers depicting a dead woman hanging with the words "T**Fs will be hung" (my asterisks)

Slightly related to some of what you mention. It went largely unnoticed but around the date of the judgement is Allison Bailey's case, Ruth Hunt completely deleted her twitter account. Whether permanently I don't know but it appears to have been in response to some of the pushback around this case including this former Stonewall CEO testing the water (in a very mild way).

Interesting.

I'm curious what people think 'the end' looks like. Does it just mean all transgender people disappear? Or that something like bathroom bills are introduced and trans healthcare banned? It doesn't seem very likely to me, there may be a few stumbling blocks in the UK, but trans rights are continuing apace all over the world and as the world economy reorientates and places that have always had a prominent trans community like India and Brasil start to take the stage I think trans acceptence is only likely to grow. The Hijra have been around for thousands of years, they ain't going anywhere and they are started to win rights, whereas South American nations seem to be virtually competing over who can be the most trans inclusive. Even someone like Trump barely skimmed the sides. The times they are a-changing, as they ever were.

The legal issues are absolutely key. So all the JRs and court cases going through right now are what matter. All the culture wars and spats on Twitter are mostly background noise, that will die away as the actual issues are dealt with.

They won't all go our way, of course, some battles will be lost, and some anomalies may remain, but I think in a few years the larger part of this ridiculous quasi-religious movement will be no longer the flavour du jour, the courts will have asserted a mostly reasonable stance, politicians and the media will have seen just how poisonous and farcical many of the issues are, and many people will quietly be trying to forget that they listed their bloody pronouns, or called women T*s.

I hope that transpeople, women and children can all then get on with their lives and continue so many of the battles that still remain to be fought (FGM, forced marriage, DV, rape, stereotyping, homophobia, etc).

‘The end’ is people being able wear what they want, hair, make-up etc without it being a big deal. It’s being allowed to state biological truths without fear. It’s people not using ridiculous phrases like ‘sex change’ or ‘born in the wrong body’; neither of which are in any way possible. It’s women’s safe spaces being protected until the threat of male violence and sex discrimination is gone (which will be never). It’s probably a third unisex option. It’s men being allowed to be effeminate without fear. It’s not making ‘trans’ the defining characteristic of any child. It’s acknowledging that it would be better for people to feel happy with the body that they have rather than going along with their delusion. It’s acknowledging AGP.

I fear the tide will only turn when girls start coming home pregnant from Guide camp or school trips.

It’s acknowledging that it would be better for people to feel happy with the body that they have rather than going along with their delusion. It’s acknowledging AGP.

So the end is people deciding that a lot of trans people are perverts/festihsists and the rest will all just decide they aren't trans anymore and their gender dysphoria will disappear due to social pressure?

That sounds an awful lot like the moral mandation of transsexuality out of society to me. I hate to think what the kind of government would look like that could achieve such an aim.

I hope the end brings about a resurgence of feminism among young women instead of so many of them trying to opt out of womanhood altogether.

I hope the end is a pushback against the role of women as it is seen in an increasingly pornified society. Where young women don't feel pressurised to wax every last public hair, don't have to try to perform like a porn star in the bedroom for their boyfriends and where clothes, toys and interests are not so sharply divided along gender lines.

I would like to see an end to puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgery for kids like Jazz Jennings who made the mistake of liking dolls and playing dress up at the age of 3 whilst being in the possession of a penis.

I would like the end to be genuine help for those who suffer from gender dysphoria and an acceptance in society, without there being a detrimental impact on the rights of women and girls, and without the requirement to believe that someone can actually change sex.

Where young women don't feel pressurised to wax every last public hair, don't have to try to perform like a porn star in the bedroom for their boyfriends and where clothes, toys and interests are not so sharply divided along gender lines.

I couldn't agree more with this, I just don't understand why people think dismantling the lives of trans people will make any difference. If you want a stark observance of gender and how it plays out in capitalist society walk into any department store. Trans people didn't do that. I don't understand why the gender critical movement is so hostile towards those who are arguably some of the biggest victims of socially imposed gender and yet the beauty, fashion and entertainment industries that ram gender down everyone's throat constantly are barely ever even acknowledged let alone criticised.

I just don't understand why people think dismantling the lives of trans people will make any difference. If you want a stark observance of gender and how it plays out in capitalist society walk into any department store. Trans people didn't do that. I don't understand why the gender critical movement is so hostile towards those who are arguably some of the biggest victims of socially imposed gender and yet the beauty, fashion and entertainment industries that ram gender down everyone's throat constantly are barely ever even acknowledged let alone criticised

Because transgenderism can only exist if there are rigid gender stereotypes. Give me one definition of being trans that doesn't rely on them.

I agree with you that people who identify as trans, especially teenagers experiencing gender dysphoria, are the victims of these stereotypes too. They should be encouraged to accept themselves as gender non-conforming, not told they are 'in the wrong body'. Unfortunately, the TRA movement is not advocating acceptance - they are advocating surgically or hormonally altering bodies to confirm to the gender stereotypes of the opposite sex. It is sexist, homophobic nonsense.

It will pass. The Cultural Revolution passed, the McCarthy witch hunts passed. At the time it must have seemed to anyone caught in their toils that it was a never-ending nightmare.

but trans rights are continuing apace all over the world and as the world economy re-orientates and places that have always had a prominent trans community like India and Brasil There will be countries who politically embrace trans rights but you can betya it will be at the expense of women's rights and gay rights.

It has always puzzled me as to why trans rights have to be more equal than women's rights

I hope the end brings about a resurgence of feminism among young women instead of so many of them trying to opt out of womanhood altogether.

I do see some green shoots of this among young women.

It will pass. The Cultural Revolution passed, the McCarthy witch hunts passed. At the time it must have seemed to anyone caught in their toils that it was a never-ending nightmare.

Agree.

Trans people didn't do that. I don't understand why the gender critical movement is so hostile towards those who are arguably some of the biggest victims of socially imposed gender and yet the beauty, fashion and entertainment industries that ram gender down everyone's throat constantly are barely ever even acknowledged let alone criticised.

I totally agree that consumerism and the fashion/beauty/toy industries are massively at fault. Do I blame trans people for that? No.

However, do I think that Pippa Bunce turning up for work in a pink outfit, bow in hair and fishnets does anything at all to counteract gender stereotypes? No. Do I think that Eddie Izzard in 'girl-mode' does anything to help women? No.

Mumsnet, I believe, did some great work back in the day with campaigns to get rid of gender-stereotypical toys. It's wrong to say that nobody ever addresses these issues.

There will be countries who politically embrace trans rights but you can betya it will be at the expense of women's rights and gay rights.

Absolutely. I'm sick of the lame argument that countries like India, Pakistan, Brazil etc are trailblazers in trans rights. These countries have abysmal records in rights for women and LGB people. So much violence, strict sex role stereotypes and sexist notions that a man or woman who doesn't conform to them must somehow be the opposite sex. You'd think that would make people reflect on why so called trans rights have advanced there before women and gay men and lesbians are treated as equals.

However, do I think that Pippa Bunce turning up for work in a pink outfit, bow in hair and fishnets does anything at all to counteract gender stereotypes?

Is it the responsibility of Pippa Bunce to destroy gender? What about the women flocking to spend thousands on clothes and cosmetics? Why is it only trans people who are expected to be the gender destroyers? And perhaps more pertinently, what about the men, as in male identified men, who seem to get a completely free pass. All the barber shops round here were sticking pictures of gangsters on the wall and having replica guns and motorbikes in their windows before the pandemic (and the nail bars going the other way and painting everything pink and hanging fake flowers everywhere). Surely this is a much more powerful reinforcement of gender than someone male bodied who call themselves gender fluid and sometimes wear a frock to work? I'd have much more confidence that the gender critical movement wasn't actually just a trans hostile movement if it was ever actually critical of gender when someone who isn't trans does it - which is pretty much everyone to some degree by the way.

Mumsnet, I believe, did some great work back in the day with campaigns to get rid of gender-stereotypical toys.

I think back in the day is perhaps the most telling phrase there. Back in the day when feminism was about more than just attacking trans people. Thankfully for many feminists it still is and that gives me more hope of change - because every trans person could disappear off this earth tomorrow and it would not make a jot of difference to the oppression women face in their everyday lives. Girls would still be growing up told they are second class citizens and objects, the horrors of religiously motivated persecution based on sex would continue, rape would still be virtually decriminalised and men would still act like arseholes.

Absolutely. I'm sick of the lame argument that countries like India, Pakistan, Brazil etc are trailblazers in trans rights. These countries have abysmal records in rights for women and LGB people

YY. I've seen people claim that Iran is great for trans people, without mentioning that it's a choice between transitioning or death for many gay men.

The government of Irann^ is considered to be one of the most discriminatory towards homosexualss^ in the world.[4][5][6] It is estimated that hundreds[7] or thousands[8][9] of homosexuals have been executed since Ruhollah Khomeinii^'s call for them to be exterminated in 1979.[10]
Transgenderr^ identity is recognized through a sex reassignment surgeryy^. Sex reassignment surgeries are partially financially supported by the state. Some homosexual individuals in Iran have been pressured to undergo sex reassignment surgery in order to avoid legal and social persecution.[11] Iran carries out more sex reassignment surgeries than any other country in the world after Thailandd^.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBTrightssinIran

@jj1968

However, do I think that Pippa Bunce turning up for work in a pink outfit, bow in hair and fishnets does anything at all to counteract gender stereotypes?

Is it the responsibility of Pippa Bunce to destroy gender? What about the women flocking to spend thousands on clothes and cosmetics? Why is it only trans people who are expected to be the gender destroyers? And perhaps more pertinently, what about the men, as in male identified men, who seem to get a completely free pass. All the barber shops round here were sticking pictures of gangsters on the wall and having replica guns and motorbikes in their windows before the pandemic (and the nail bars going the other way and painting everything pink and hanging fake flowers everywhere). Surely this is a much more powerful reinforcement of gender than someone male bodied who call themselves gender fluid and sometimes wear a frock to work? I'd have much more confidence that the gender critical movement wasn't actually just a trans hostile movement if it was ever actually critical of gender when someone who isn't trans does it - which is pretty much everyone to some degree by the way.

Give me a definition of how people know they are trans that doesn't rely on gender stereotypes.

(You won't ever answer this question, because you can't.)

Mumsnet, I believe, did some great work back in the day with campaigns to get rid of gender-stereotypical toys.

Yes I think Maya Forstater was a founding member of that campaign or a similar one. Women's campaigns are great. Mumsnet has been the start of many, most recently the We Can't Consent to This campaign against rough sex being used as a defence to rape and murder.

I think back in the day is perhaps the most telling phrase there. Back in the day when feminism was about more than just attacking trans people. Thankfully for many feminists it still is and that gives me more hope of change - because every trans person could disappear off this earth tomorrow and it would not make a jot of difference to the oppression women face in their everyday lives.

That is categorically untrue. I can tell you right now that if trans people disappeared tomorrow, I could use the toilets in my workplace with the reasonable expectation of privacy from my colleague who demands to be called a woman. That would improve my life immensely. Colleague is middle aged transitioner who absolutely gets kicks from imposing on women and making them uncomfortable.

I could go to my favourite pub and enjoy a drink and be able to used a ladies toilet, not an 'any gender' toilet. Incidentally, my husband can still use a men's toilet in that pub, it's only the women who have no facilities of their own.

So there are two examples right now.

I'm not arguing for transgender people to be rounded up and put in camps, before you accuse me of something like that. Just pointing out that your statement is completely false.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Absolutely. I'm sick of the lame argument that countries like India, Pakistan, Brazil etc are trailblazers in trans rights. These countries have abysmal records in rights for women and LGB people

YY. I've seen people claim that Iran is great for trans people, without mentioning that it's a choice between transitioning or death for many gay men.

The government of Irann^ is considered to be one of the most discriminatory towards homosexualss^ in the world.[4][5][6] It is estimated that hundreds[7] or thousands[8][9] of homosexuals have been executed since Ruhollah Khomeinii^'s call for them to be exterminated in 1979.[10]
Transgenderr^ identity is recognized through a sex reassignment surgeryy^. Sex reassignment surgeries are partially financially supported by the state. Some homosexual individuals in Iran have been pressured to undergo sex reassignment surgery in order to avoid legal and social persecution.[11] Iran carries out more sex reassignment surgeries than any other country in the world after Thailandd^.

[[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT]]rightssinIran

Iran is a living hell for trans people who face either compulsory full medical transition or jail under laws which forbid crosdressing or even death depending on their sexuality, And following surgery they are widely shunned with the vast amount of them ending up in the undergroud sex industry.

The main reason they carry so many gender reassignment surgeries is it's because it's the only country in the region which has Imans who will sanction it and so they've built up a cottage industry as the only place in the Middle East where trans people can get treatment.