Is this going to end? If so, when? What will be the catalyst?

[SybillTrelawney]

Sorry if these are pointless questions — I realise no one really knows the answers. But I need some hope, because I'm feeling so fed up. The attitude many of my colleagues have to gender and sex scares me, and the way that all diversity initiatives at work now revolve around gender ideology (while ignoring women) leaves me in a constant state of low-level anger. I just can't see an end to it, and I'm wondering what it will take for there to be a big shift in attitude amongst the sort of people who are sustaining the current climate of fear.

It's going to take the current young adult generation to come hard up against the limits of their physicality.

For example I myself thought all was equal opportunities until I came bang up against the physical limits of pregnancy, childbirth, child care etc. Then those things came to the fore of my mind. Only then did I realise the psychological ties that bind our view of the world.

Our institutions have been captured, I don't think at ground level, but I do think, as you rise up the levels of e.g. the NHS, the capture is more significant. Bubble mentality means they can't really see the issues until a Brighton incident comes along, then there is a bit of a kerfuffle. I really don't think the UK will allow its freedoms to be easily taken away. Look at the comments below articles in the news. Any media outlet that thinks we will go along with bollocks is a bit daft in the head. It may not be instantaneous, but an overhaul of the education system and a re-iteration of the rights of UK citizens wont be a bad thing (though I am against government intervention, I am for reminders)

I do think detransitioners are the key. I wonder how many transitioners there are who feel stuck where they are? You can no more fully detransition than you can fully transition in the first place - they might think it's better to be a passable man than a woman with 5 o'clock shadow and a deep voice. The tales of those who have gone back and forth - the medical complications - are so sad.

I agree that adult life and specifically childbearing gives women a new perspective on feminism... But what about the young people coming up after this generation? Social media mobs are always going to be full of the young and privileged.

My head's been in this rabbit hole for the last 3 years, and every time I think it will end , and the tide will turn...e.g. keira, Jk Rowling , Harry the Owl etc.. it doesn't and it seems to just get worse...Lib Dems, pronouns, D&I training etc. etc..

I'm going to be pessimistic and say that it will not turn.. it's like boiling the frog...the corruption of language and rights will be gradual, younger people see it as normal to spoke in the woke gobbledegook already...Although I remain hopeful that Gen Z s will see through the BS.

You are right highame!

The comments below the Times articles always cheer me up!

Re DBS

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3690840-Reply-from-Home-Office-re-DBS-and-GRC

DBS checks are therefore dependent upon being able to con-firm and verify all names used by an individual when checking whether they might pose a threat to others, for example whether they have been convicted of a serious offence.

For these very important reasons, applicants for a DBS check are asked to produce doc-uments from a primary set (a current valid passport issued by any country, UK photo card driving licence, UK biometric residence permit or a UK birth certificate issued within 12 months of birth) together with other trusted Government issued documents or finan-cial/social history documents. This includes ensuring that the applicant provides details of all addresses where they have lived in the last five years

Our policies must adhere to the important protections afforded to transgender people, such as protecting an individual’s gender history, which are enshrined in the Gender Recogni-tion Act 2004

Sorry @ItsAllGoingToBeFine, but does that then mean that persons with a GRS can neatly sidestep the DBS check?? ie you are employing a female to, say, work with teenagers, and the DBS check won't tell you that this person is in fact male??

Re women's rights and complacency:

I wish more people knew that two women are killed in domestic abuse, every week, three a week in lockdown.

If any other demographic group was being killed at that rate, three a week in exactly the same way, I'd hope we'd hear about it!

Trouble is, there is a lot of "not all men". For some reason, this is much more acceptable to people than "not all white people", say. It's seen as an interpersonal conflict rather than a societal plague.

While women's suffering is underplayed and misunderstood, no wonder other groups can claim that women are privileged, and that they themselves are the most vulnerable group. And people believe them.

Re women's rights and complacency:

Absolutely. It's so chilling seeing photos of Tehran and Kabul in the 70s, all the young women free and unveiled, wearing the clothes fashionable at the time.

MaudTheInvincible and Ereshkigalangcleg

Exactly! I think of it often, it is terrifying.

Perhaps a bit of compromise over things like sport or prison but on the whole women's lives barely even touched.

How dismissive.

For anyone who wonders what it might be like to be in a Women's prison in 'feminist' California, this is a sobering video.

8 women sharing a cell designed for 4 with its own toilet and shower in the room - and a system that allows self-ID males, regardless of their crime, to be housed in the same cell.

And this is what the Sunshine state's utopia looks like?

Awful.

I wish more people knew that two women are killed in domestic abuse, every week, three a week in lockdown.

Plus the number of women per week who take their lives or attempt it because of their experience of domestic abuse (3 and 30 respectively according to this report - I couldn't begin to think what is happening to women in such despair under present circumstances).

www.nspa.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/New-Suicide-Report2c-Refuge-and-University-of-Warwick.pdf

Another growing demographic of people affected by this issue ( apart from the growing number of young female de-transitioners) is 'trans widows' - and by extension their children and wider family. As more and more men feel emboldened to take the step towards " living F/T as a woman" then more people will be aware of the 'drivers' that really lie behind such a move.

@bourbonne

I wish more people knew that two women are killed in domestic abuse, every week, three a week in lockdown.

If any other demographic group was being killed at that rate, three a week in exactly the same way, I'd hope we'd hear about it!

Trouble is, there is a lot of "not all men". For some reason, this is much more acceptable to people than "not all white people", say. It's seen as an interpersonal conflict rather than a societal plague.

While women's suffering is underplayed and misunderstood, no wonder other groups can claim that women are privileged, and that they themselves are the most vulnerable group. And people believe them.

the thing is bourbonne is I think a lot of people do know that, they do know how many women are killed in domestic abuse but it's seen as somehow OK because either

1. they dont know any woman its happened to personally

or

1. "well why didnt she leave before if he'd been violent?"

or

1. she probably did something to deserve it

or

1. yehbutmengethurttoo

if people didnt know and would be shocked to find out, Id be more hopeful but Ive never talked to anyone who has reacted with shock to that statistic, they've nearly always known, they just dont see it as their problem or something they can do anything about

@Kit19 ah that's awful. I only found out myself recently, and I was shocked. It was around the same time that I became aware of a situation like that on the periphery of my life (nobody killed, at least). Witnessing the domestic behaviour of a violent, aggressive, bullying man has been a horrendous eye opener, even from afar. I have felt afraid and in a state of panic even at a distance from it.

It'll end when it starts negatively impacting men.

@bourbonne I know, it really sucks when the realisation dawns that women are seen as not being as important as men. We matter while we're doing things that men dont mind e.g. the home schooling, providing care to elderly relatives, looking attractive, having sex but if we start to do things that inconvenience men like wanting equal pay or household chores equally shared or to keep our women only spaces free from men no matter how they identify or to not be assaulted suddenly its all soooooo difficult to deal with and anyway why aren't we more grateful for what we do have eh?

@Kit19 that and the physical dominance. It's so easy when you're sheltered, to think that equality is sorted and women don't particularly need protection. You don't realise until you come up close with a big, aggressive man that the power imbalance is always tipped in their favour, because they could always overpower you. It seems like a lot of people think it's old-fashioned or inegalitarian to even acknowledge this. It just underlines how the need for women's rights and protections stems directly from our physical realities.

I do think detransitioners are the key. I wonder how many transitioners there are who feel stuck where they are?

Very few, regret is very rare. I wonder how much of the way some people look at this is that they personally can't imagine what it must be like to want the physical characteristics of the other sex and feel personally horrified at the thought of being somehow a somehow deformed or mutilated parody of that sex. And the thing is trans people don't see it that way at all. We are well aware of the limitations of transition but we do it anyway, and feel better for it. It's not long we're in a state of permanent torment at the body we destroyed and the body we can never have - we make the best of it, make the changes to the point we feel comfortable and get on with our lives and very few have regrets, quite the opposite in fact, most people say it felt absolutely necessary and was the best thing they've ever done.

I think a lot of the drama needs to be taken out of transition/detransition. Whilst I appreciate with young people it's different, but detransition never really used to be such a big deal. Someone might change their presentation of take hormones for a real and then decide it wasn't for them, or often wasn't the right time and stopped. And even with the young it takes a long time to transition. It's not like you swallow a puberty blockering and that's it, you've made inevitable changes. You have to keep taking them, and then start taking hormones, and if you don't like developing the characteristics of the other sex as hormone changes kick in you can stop. That's why there's so few detransitioners, because in the UK at least the idea the second a girl kicks a football she'll be whisked off to the Tavistock and forced onto lifelong medication is a wild falsehood. It takes years, just to get there, and then the vast majority will not have any treatment - and the ones who do, whose gender dysphoria has been consistent and persistent for a long time, when it persists into the first stages of puberty, and when they continue with the treatment for several years are almost certainly going to become trans adults who would have transitioned anyway.

Detransitioners deserve support, their story should be told, and most importantly the stigma around detransition should be reduced. But the idea that there's hundreds of them just waiting to bring law suits that will destroy the trans forever is a fantasy I'm afraid.

I wish more people knew that two women are killed in domestic abuse, every week, three a week in lockdown.

I wish this too. But this has nothing to do with trans people and if every trans person disappeared tomorrow it wouldn't make any difference.

@jj1968

I do think detransitioners are the key. I wonder how many transitioners there are who feel stuck where they are?

Very few, regret is very rare. I wonder how much of the way some people look at this is that they personally can't imagine what it must be like to want the physical characteristics of the other sex and feel personally horrified at the thought of being somehow a somehow deformed or mutilated parody of that sex. And the thing is trans people don't see it that way at all. We are well aware of the limitations of transition but we do it anyway, and feel better for it. It's not long we're in a state of permanent torment at the body we destroyed and the body we can never have - we make the best of it, make the changes to the point we feel comfortable and get on with our lives and very few have regrets, quite the opposite in fact, most people say it felt absolutely necessary and was the best thing they've ever done.

I think a lot of the drama needs to be taken out of transition/detransition. Whilst I appreciate with young people it's different, but detransition never really used to be such a big deal. Someone might change their presentation of take hormones for a real and then decide it wasn't for them, or often wasn't the right time and stopped. And even with the young it takes a long time to transition. It's not like you swallow a puberty blockering and that's it, you've made inevitable changes. You have to keep taking them, and then start taking hormones, and if you don't like developing the characteristics of the other sex as hormone changes kick in you can stop. That's why there's so few detransitioners, because in the UK at least the idea the second a girl kicks a football she'll be whisked off to the Tavistock and forced onto lifelong medication is a wild falsehood. It takes years, just to get there, and then the vast majority will not have any treatment - and the ones who do, whose gender dysphoria has been consistent and persistent for a long time, when it persists into the first stages of puberty, and when they continue with the treatment for several years are almost certainly going to become trans adults who would have transitioned anyway.

Detransitioners deserve support, their story should be told, and most importantly the stigma around detransition should be reduced. But the idea that there's hundreds of them just waiting to bring law suits that will destroy the trans forever is a fantasy I'm afraid.

jj1968 please can you share your sources. You keep saying the number of detransitioners is small. What actual proof do you have of this?

Seeing as the clinics don't do follow up and there are no decent studies on detransitioners, and the few - poor studies - have been on adult transitioners so not on the recent wave of young people transitioning, who are a completely different cohorts. Plus, anecdotally, detransitioners tend to say they leave the trans community because they don't feel welcome, I'm wondering where you are getting your information from?

I'm really of two minds.

On the one hand I think there may be some kind of incident or set of incidents where the majority, who either think it's all stupid, or aren't very aware, will dig in their heels. Maybe it will be the Olympics. Or some sort of giant scandal, or the medical effects around transition of children. I think the latter is going to be a huge controversy at some point, but I am not sure if it will really challenge gender ideology as such. But certain areas like sports may see some backpedaling around gender policies. I think this sort of thing will begin within the next ten years.

On the other hand, a lot of what is going on with gender ideology comes out of larger scale social movements. A large part of me thinks that it will not go away unless they are successfully challenged. Basically postmodernism, critical theory, much of the sexual revolution, and some elements of the feminist discourse. I think that will be a mush longer haul, 50 years if it happens at all. The big question is where is new the thinking that will be necessary supplant these ideas come from?

Women being murdered isn't anything to do with trans people just like being a woman isn't anything to do with trans people. Different things
Why is women wanting to retain a distinct sex category so problematic