Transmen taking spaces away from males?

[SorryPleaseTryAgain]

I have been wondering whether there are any instances where transmen are taking spaces/awards/representation away from biological males? I don't think I've ever seen any examples of this, does it ever happen?

Wouldn't it be so useful if someone could list all the transwomen who are known to be playing on female sports teams, who have won medals, accolades, women of the year, are representing women as women's officer, on advisory boards etc

And then do the same for transmen. All the known transmen that play on male sports teams (0?) have won medals in men's sports competitions (0?) are on the boards of male specific charities or organisations. Any transmen have been named man of the year, businessman of the year etc. And I don't mean LGBTQ accolades, but those that biological men would otherwise have won.
Also how many transmen are in other, general political positions (as these would most likely otherwise have been held my men).

It would be really great if someone clever (Maybe Fairplay for Women wink ) could contrast this against statistics for men and women, similar to what they did with prison statistics. That way we could see if the same patterns of males being overrepresented in positions of power, recognition for achievements etc continue regardless of how the person identifies.

Even within the LGBTQ community itself we see lots of transwomen in leading positions.

If anyone has any examples, feel free to list them on this thread!

I have read, in the past, that some gay men resent transmen in their spaces. I'd be interested to hear more about this. The 'whys' and 'hows' of that.

Men, in general, are not threatened by women. Women tend not to be fetishists in the same way. You don't really get female peeping toms or cross dressers. women will never take away men's sporting medlas, or be able to injure men while playing sport in quite the same way as men can injure women.

Men can defend themselves from physical attack from a woman, in a way that a woman could not really offer a proper physical defence against a man.

i'm interested to know if transmen really do feel at home and comfortable in male toilets and changing rooms?

One of the young women at the Manchester detransitioner event last year - said she used to play in a men's basketball team, but never really felt comfortable doing so; but when she detransitioned and started playing in a women only team, on the contrary she really enjoyed that.

I agree and I would expect that very few, if any, male specific charities have transmen on their boards etc.

But I think it would be so good to have some cold hard figures to point to in discussions about transwomen taking up spaces that would otherwise have gone to women, or speaking on behalf of women, e.g such as the 50/50 thread.
It would be useful to be able to point out the disparity between transwomen (males) pushing women aside and transmen (females) not being able to do the same, regardless of how they identify. To show how this once again (surprise, surprise) unfairly disadvantages females.

As men dominate everyday life there are not so many ‘men only’ opportunities for transmen to push into. For example, there are no men only shortlists for parliament.

Despite this you are right: It is only too easy to imagine a transwoman winning the ‘best female artist’ at a music awards ceremony, but I cannot picture a transman being nominated for ‘best male’.

Exacly aliasundercover

So if TWAW and TMAM we should really be seeing MORE transmen on the general lists, boards, winning awards etc then we see transwomen on the women only lists, if you see what I mean? That's why women only lists exist in the first place. So where are all the transmen?

E.g Lily Madigan was the womens officer for labour. Are there any other examples of transwomen being elected for the Labour Party?

Then contrast that with transmen being elected for the labour party. Are there any examples?

If we are to see the same pattern as for men and women in general then far more transmen will have been elected than transwomen. (hence the need for women only short lists).

The only sporting instance that comes immediately to mind is Patricio Manuel, super-featherweight boxer. I don't know what's become of Manuel since his professional debut in that historic match in 2018.
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/dec/21/patricio-manuel-trans-boxer-made-history

And then do the same for transmen. All the known transmen that play on male sports teams (0?) have won medals in men's sports competitions (0?) are on the boards of male specific charities or organisations. Any transmen have been named man of the year, businessman of the year etc. And I don't mean LGBTQ accolades, but those that biological men would otherwise have won.
Also how many transmen are in other, general political positions (as these would most likely otherwise have been held my men).

great plan - we need a master resource of all of these gathered together.

We made a start on the 5050 Parliament thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4166666-50-50-Parliament-Campaign-to-Encourage-Women-in-Politics-now-have-TWO-Transwomen-on-the-Panel

We identified 15 womens political positions that have been taken by others, some of whom held several positions reserved for women or speaking for women so I think that added up to approx 35 positions of influence/public platforms lost to women in that arena.

The bulk of the list of people is on p5 - I won't post it again as I am being v.careful on two strikes and don't want to annoy anyone but you can check it out.

I haven't looked into sports but I can think of quite a few off the top of my head and one you won't find on the internet - a family member lost a place on the championship squad for her sport to someone not born female and none of the parents felt that they could speak up because they were well known in the community and their employers are Stonewalled.

I find it so sad that a young girl's parents can't speak up for a grave injustice she has suffered because they may put their jobs at risk.

It would be a really good idea to gather statistics on this. So that when we are shouted down by neo-liberals to "be kind" in response to intimating that this is just another 'men's rights'' movement - there are facts which cannot be repudiated.

I take a slightly different view - many transmen pass perfectly. Their colleagues might genuinely have zero idea that the bloke in accounts was once a woman.

My understanding is that once you start taking hormones, you will start growing facial and body hair. Couple that with breast removal surgery, modestly about peeing in front of "other" men, and so long as you're not too petite to start with, you will just be a short guy.

If you have been successfully passing for years - and excelling in your field, whatever that is - why would you screw it all up by saying "HELLO! I am TRANS and beating men at their own game!"

I'm gender critical, but wouldn't dream of asking someone to out themselves if everything has been going swimmingly for them and nobody knows.

Manuel hasn't competed since 2018, though I don't know why. If Manuel went ahead with surgery it would undoubtedly affect the ability to participate in a chosen sport for some time.

I vaguely remember a young ftm person competing against women and that being an issue around doping on testosterone.

Anne Verito win against Railson Paixao back in 2018 also in Brazil. Anne has said that Anne doesn't want to compete against women as it would be fair.

There was something about a sauna for gay men kicking out a ftm a couple of years ago and the Mr Gay England has a ftm competing in April.

There is also the Boxer Ceiling if it is still up on Facebook. There is no shortage there if gay men being called bigots or worse for not accepting female sexual partners or as for rejecting females in their dating pool.

AFAIK there is no data being gathered on this, as there was with Get the L Out's research work called Ground Zero.

I think looking at under-15 teams would be a good idea. I know of one football team which has a male on the girls team and that's just anecdotally so if we were to dig below the surface I'm sure there would be more.

[quote WagnersFourthSymphony]The only sporting instance that comes immediately to mind is Patricio Manuel, super-featherweight boxer. I don't know what's become of Manuel since his professional debut in that historic match in 2018.
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/dec/21/patricio-manuel-trans-boxer-made-history[/quote]
afaik they never fought again and have become a LGBTQ+ campaigner

Wasn't there a physicist who died recently, who was a women when they started their doctorate in physics and transitioned half way through.

They really saddened when people who tore strips off "her" work early in their studies suddenly started praising "his" work when they didn't know that they were the same person (I think people thought that they had just met a sister before and were now meeting the brother). That people were just patronising jerks to female physicists and perfectly nice to male ones.

Found it!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Barres

"After delivering his first seminar as a man, one scientist was overheard to comment, “Ben Barres gave a great seminar today, but his work is much better than his sister’s [believing Barbara to be his sister] work.”

(Before transitioning) "After solving a difficult math problem that stumped many male students, his professor charged that it was solved for him by a boyfriend.[17] He was the top student in the class, but found it hard to get a willing supervisor for research. He lost a scholarship to a man who had only one publication, while he already had six.[18] While earning a PhD at Harvard, he was told that he was to win a scientific competition, which was evidently between him and one man; the Dean confided to him, “I have read both applications, and it’s going to be you; your application is so much better.” But the award was given to the man, who dropped out of science a year later.[19]

After transitioning, he noticed that people who were not aware of his transgender status treated him with respect much more than when he presented as a woman.[20]

If many transmen are experiencing similar, they're going to stay quiet and just enjoy their acquired privilege and not speak out about it.

Was watching one of Glinner's interviews recently with a lovely gentleman called Mr Menno. Mr. Menno said that apparently on Facebook's dating site, when as a gay man you specify who you are looking to date, you have the choice of 'All men' or 'Trans men'. Trans men are included in 'All men', so there is no way to filter females out of your potential dates.

Here: about 6'30" in.

Transman Chris Mosier, represented the USA at Duathlon.
Transboy Mack Beggs won two girls championships at wrestling despite being on Testosterone.

Schuyler Bailar - swimmer
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuyler_Bailar

There is a page on Wikipedia (google transgender politicians) which lists out current politicians, it doesn't to me seem as if there are any transmen on that list.

But crosspelican your "If many transmen are experiencing similar, they're going to stay quiet and just enjoy their acquired privilege and not speak out about it." statement might be spot on.

Transmen are even further down the pecking order than women I would imagine

Sheila Jeffreys refers to transmen as being subjagted into the lowest of the sex castes (can't link to it as the sites where a good discussion of Gender Hurts was available no longer exist). Some quotations from Gender Hurts but none include what I had in mind:

www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/19344895-gender-hurts-a-feminist-analysis-of-the-politics-of-transgenderism

There was an amazing YT video of a discussion with a young transman (might be detransioning) who discussed the experience of coercion and abuse that plays out in plain sight and this sounded very like the castes. 'Ben' (the interviewee, not the interviewer Benjamin Boyce) recounted being shouted down by transwomen in the youth groups, all of whom were adults. There was some good discussion about this on FWR, iirc.

[quote WagnersFourthSymphony]The only sporting instance that comes immediately to mind is Patricio Manuel, super-featherweight boxer. I don't know what's become of Manuel since his professional debut in that historic match in 2018.
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/dec/21/patricio-manuel-trans-boxer-made-history[/quote]
The only trans person ever to qualify for a US national team was a trans man: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier

@Smurftastic

I've been lurking a lot on the feminism boards and I can't stop wondering whether jj here has anything else going on in his life than 'educating' us pesky women...

I don't post half as much on here as many people do.

I was on Instagram the other week and came across a really well articulated and well measured post by a transman essentially saying they'd taken a lot of care over the years not to encroach on gay males spaces and to always wait until they were invited rather than assuming that just because they identified as a gay man, that other people would automatically view them as such.

It was very well received with lots of likes and positive comments etc that it gave me hope that more measured discussions with recognition of the nuances within the debate would become more commonplace.

Anyway I thought about sharing it on here mainly because I found it interesting that a transman talking about not encroaching on male spaces was deemed praiseworthy but a woman asking the same is transphobic. Anyway I couldn't find the post again. It was someone with a lot of followers -I found them via something Jameela Jamil had shared and I'm sure their name began with a B, but if you do come across it, it's very good!

Perhaps it is time to start asking TRAs for the names of their 3 favourite transman sporting heroes. Podium finishers, ideally.

Men wouldn't stand for it and are allowed to say no to females being included in their groups and spaces and keep their language.

More on the oft cited Chris Mosier

medium.com/@drtonylycholat/slower-than-a-spritely-grandma-81dd8000dfac