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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans campaigners want to abolish prisons - wonder why?

167 replies

stumbledin · 14/02/2021 23:47

... Mermaids, Stonewall, Be:North, CliniQ, Consortium, Galop, Gendered Intelligence, GIRES, and Sparkle have partnered together with the aim of creating “lasting change for trans communities in healthcare and criminal justice systems.” The working group published three “community engagement reports” for their TRANSforming Futures series after listening to “a diverse range of trans people in England.” Continue reading The Prison System is Transphobic and Must be Abolished, Say Transgender Activists | Women Are Human.

... Participants are calling to abolish prisons, explaining that “work on abolition directly confronts criminalisation of trans communities.”

... The report does not provide suggestions on how to manage such violent and sexual predators as murderers, rapists and child rapists in the absence of a prison system. ...

(So male prisoners who have been found guilty of violence against women can now trans(fer) to a women's prison, and in the future not do any prison time at all. Really??)

Info from www.womenarehuman.com/prisons-are-transphobic-and-must-be-abolished-say-transgender-activists/

Link to the actual pamphlet www.transformingfuturespartnership.co.uk/criminal-justice funded by the National Lottery Community Fund.

OP posts:
LaVitaPuoEsserePiuBella · 16/02/2021 05:28

@andyoldlabour

There are clearly some very serious psychological and mental issues going on with anyone who wants to see prisons abolished. It really is that simple.
Yes. Wow 😮😮😮 at the idea in the OP. Thank you for highlighting this particular strain of utter lunacy.
MangoFeverDream · 16/02/2021 06:05

I rather assumed this was in response to the rather compelling case made by women that putting rapists, murderers and other violent men in the women’s estate is an utterly inhumane and illogical thing to do

Yep. Putting TW into women’s sports is unfair, so
let’s argue that sports are unimportant and should be abolished (unless it’s just for fun)

Putting TW into women’s prisons is dangerous, so let’s argue that prisons should be abolished.

Looks very familiar ....

CuriousaboutSamphire · 16/02/2021 10:14

True colours emerging though, that's what we need, more sunlight.

Ooh! Look, JJ's doing the DARVO thing.

How cute!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 16/02/2021 10:28

I actually came back to challenge JJ on the Davis book again, But see @LangClegsInSpace has very eloquently beaten me to it.

Davis started from a place most people never inhabit and her prison reform is embedded deeply in her personal experiences. She makes very many salient points, points that need to be heard, but she often buries them deep under her personal belief that all violent crime comes from personal inequity and the rich give to the poor, white to black, oppressor to the oppressed, etc etc, and all will be well!

Hers is an empassioned view, but utterly impractical on many levels.

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud · 16/02/2021 11:49

@Hettie12345

I'm glad to hear that YetAnotherSpartacus, as having skimmed the doc, I was equally alarmed to read a suggestion to "Decriminalise Mental Health" for transpeople. What does this even mean? As far as I'm aware, having a mental illness or being sectioned under the Mental Health Act are not criminal offences?

It's very harmful and stigmatising to those suffering mental illness and detained for their own safety, to assume a link with criminality or risk to others.

Or is it being suggested that trans people diagnosed with mental illness, deemed at risk of committing criminal acts or harm to others, should not be detained and treated, but non-trans people should?

It makes me think of more people arguing for diminished responsibility for crimes- like this person (not trans- but recent) www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-wales-56071168
jj1968 · 16/02/2021 13:39

However Angela Davis never quite grapples with the thorny issue of what to do with violent offenders and how to prevent them committing further violent offences. She discusses it a bit at the very end of the book but it's just not good enough:

I agree that some of the answers I've seen from the prison abolitionist movement about how to deal with serial rapist sor murderers, just as an example, are unsatisfactory. But I think it's important to recognise where Davis is coming from. Prior to the birth of the GC movement feminists of all stripes were pretty much united that male violence was not inevitable - biology isn't destiny cuts both ways - and so was feminism to be successful and overthrow patriarchy then male violence against women, in it's current endemic form, would disappear.

It's hard to imagine what such a world would look like. But if boys were not constantly given the message that they have a sexual right to women's bodies and that successful men use violence to get what they want then society would very likely develop along different lines. So much of masculinity is tied up with being really hard and shagging loads of women and I don't think that is the natural state of being male - I don't think there is a natural state of being male.

And if such a society were also to end the drug war and the vast criminal empire it creates, create economic and racial equality to the point that everyone's needs were met, and organise our lives in a very different way to the current capitalist economy then I suspect a large amount of crime would disappear as would the culture surrounding it. Davis is a committed anti-capitalist after all, she is talking about revolutionary change

Whilst it might sound utopian, for many men and women of colour, and many who are just poor in the US, and elsewhere, the current system is a horror show that demolishes people and so a bit of utopian thinking on how to get out of that is a good thing.

The question is would that be enough to end male violence. Firstly her position isn't that getting rid of prisons means getting rid of all forms of justice. Imagine if the first time a man raised his hand to a woman or behaved sexually inappropriately she felt empowered to report it and immediately a system of education, rehabilitation, and potentially reparative justice kicked in. That would seem preferable to me than waiting until he's done it enough times that society thinks it's a problem and locks him up in a system he is likely to come out of twice as violent as before with little recourse to even find a decent job and learn to become a different type of person.

I think if these kinds of social changes were brought about, then it's at the very least arguable that 99% of prison places would no longer be necessary. My feeling is even then the Peter Sutcliffe's of the world may well still exist, but could they be dealt with by a mental health system - which he actually currently is - or some form of home confinement? Or something else? Once you're only dealing with a very small number of people all kinds of different possibilities open up. So I think her ideas have a lot of merit, but they do depend on the kind of revolutionary change that most feminists of her era were fighting for, and some still are.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 16/02/2021 14:00

Imagine if the first time a man raised his hand to a woman or behaved sexually inappropriately she felt empowered to report it and immediately a system of education, rehabilitation, and potentially reparative justice kicked in.

So, what does that actually mean? He gets to go to anger management classes, is told how badly he has behaved, agrees and apologises, maybe volunteers to help out in a community project to show his remorse?

I have news for you. I used to work in just such a programme. I still work in part of it. Back in the 90s/2000s they took very young violent men and did all of that. Notes from the research, echoed in some mainstream, published studies was that:

If the young man came to us after his first violent crime and fully engaged then he was far less likely to re offend than another who was incarcerated

If a young man came to us after a number of offences, no arrests or sentencing, and fully engaged, he was a little less likely to reoffend than another similar who was incarcerated.

If he came to us after incarceration, was already a recidivist, then neither he nor the others in that group would engage with the process and many / most would reoffend.

And, oddly, the process of punishing young men who are violent against partners usually follows that pattern: offer them courses, understanding, education and training; offer a more structured education and more community reparation; prison - though the first 2 steps can, and often are, not followed depending on the levles of violence or a decision based on the attitudes of all involved.

Zinco · 16/02/2021 14:12

Whilst it might sound utopian, for many men and women of colour, and many who are just poor in the US, and elsewhere, the current system is a horror show that demolishes people and so a bit of utopian thinking on how to get out of that is a good thing.

Perhaps hypothetically if you could apply all these various policies you would have a very different kind of society. OK perhaps.

But when you start, "defunding the police", or not using prison, in the real world we live in today, it's obviously kind of dangerous.

Who is most likely to be the victim with that kind of policy? I will suggest it's law-abiding people at the bottom of society including plenty of minority persons.

Yes there are socio-economic factors which can play a role in criminality. Yes, some people are born in much less lucky circumstances. However, you still need to insist that people are responsible for their actions and can be punished accordingly.

jj1968 · 16/02/2021 14:22

So, what does that actually mean? He gets to go to anger management classes, is told how badly he has behaved, agrees and apologises, maybe volunteers to help out in a community project to show his remorse?

Well it could also include some kind of monitoring, which under Davis' vision would happen in the context of strong communities in which male violence towards women was no longer normalised or endemic. Boys wouldn't grow up watching gangster films, or being taught violence is a part of male life in the playground or in a culture saturated with sexualised images of women.

I think the work you've done, which is admirable btw, shows there is merit to solutions beyond prison. Imagine what could be achieved in a very different kind of society? That's what Angela Davis is getting it, we need revolutionary reform because the current system is not working and can't be fixed.

Darcinian · 16/02/2021 14:26

It looks bonkers when expressed as abolish prisons instead of work towards making prisons mostly unnecessary through:
(a) using non-prison methods of punishment and protection where suitable
(b) decriminalising some things (TV licence?)
(c) changing society so fewer people commit criminal acts

Jumping to the end point would be like lobbying to have me being sent up to ISS as an astronaut despite being too unfit, no astronaut training, not a military pilot because if I had been trained and was fit and had been given the opportunity to train as a jet fighter test pilot then I might well have been good as a space explorer so let's blame society for those things not having happened and send me up to tinker with Hubble to be fair.

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 16/02/2021 14:28

I would support LGBTQ wings in prisons but some might argue that’s just another form of discrimination - it seems the safest option to me ...

I can’t believe any lesbian or bi woman prisoner, given the choice, would pick a mixed sex prison over an all-female one. GBTQ wings maybe....

jj1968 · 16/02/2021 14:42

But when you start, "defunding the police", or not using prison, in the real world we live in today, it's obviously kind of dangerous.

I don't disagree but the vision and principles can be used to make change now. When austerity policies pretty much shut down youth services in London, the EMA that encouraged poor kids to stay in school was abolished and student fees raised to eye watering levels that was a massive fuck you to young working class people condemned to an ever more precarious life of minimum wage work, zero hours contracts and unaffordable housing. Pretty much everyone from those communities, especially youth/probation/education workers knew this would increase youth crime, and it did, there was an explosion of gang related knife crime just a few years later. And now we need more police and prisons to deal with it and that just creates a spiral of increasingly damaged, violent and impoverished people. Had the principles of defund the police been applied instead by investing in services and young people themselves instead of more cops then we probably wouldn't be in that situation.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 16/02/2021 14:49

@jj1968

So, what does that actually mean? He gets to go to anger management classes, is told how badly he has behaved, agrees and apologises, maybe volunteers to help out in a community project to show his remorse?

Well it could also include some kind of monitoring, which under Davis' vision would happen in the context of strong communities in which male violence towards women was no longer normalised or endemic. Boys wouldn't grow up watching gangster films, or being taught violence is a part of male life in the playground or in a culture saturated with sexualised images of women.

I think the work you've done, which is admirable btw, shows there is merit to solutions beyond prison. Imagine what could be achieved in a very different kind of society? That's what Angela Davis is getting it, we need revolutionary reform because the current system is not working and can't be fixed.

Monitoring... strong communities... changes to society.

And you are in a chicken : egg situation. Which is the main sticking point. Because something has to be done to curb violence in the men without the utopian education whilst the youth are being indocrinated - which will be the main objection to it.

You've seen incel and MRA writing, haven't you?

The main barrier to any of the young men we saw fully engaging in the programme was peer pressure and their fathers, uncles, next door neighbours, any older male. Most never did fully engage. Most went on to re offend in various ways. Many were incarcerated.

Tibtom · 16/02/2021 14:55

If you defund the police and get rid of prisons then we can see what happens in countries around the: wealthy individuals live in gated communities with private security who accompany them on trips out. Poorer people are dragged down by a cycle of corruption and criminality. More dystopian thn utopian

andyoldlabour · 16/02/2021 15:04

jj1968

Street gangs and knife crime were not caused by austerity cuts (even though it didn't help matters), it has been going on for decades, since the 1980's. We are only just beginning to officially recognise "County lines" drug gangs, which have existed for ages. I never carried a knife when I was young and I didn't know anyone who did.
People have to take responsibility for their actions, and if they transgress then they pay the price. Violent crime has to result in custodial sentancing. This has to be done in order to protect law abiding people.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangsta_rap

Darcinian · 16/02/2021 15:07

Boys wouldn't grow up watching gangster films, or being taught violence is a part of male life in the playground or in a culture saturated with sexualised images of women.

I do not think this "feminised" world will ever happen, or is even desirable. In every society, even lovely Nordics, men feel a drive to be ready to fight to protect women, children and property if attacked. There is evolutionary pressure for men to feel a desire to possess the women who will bear his children.

Remember too that some people are just nasty bullies and general dickheads. If such a person is a man he can use his superior size and strength to be awful to women. Women can do damage too of course but generally to other women and children, much less so to men.

While culture does change levels of violence, there will always be violence in society.

I would not abolish prisons on a promise of all men becoming mild pussy cats if we ban gangster movies, GTA make all images or interactions with women be with them fully covered up in baggy clothes, stop all addiction and somehow give everyone a good job and fulfilled life.

stumbledin · 16/02/2021 15:30

Recent article by Howard Legue for Penal Reform - Stop Building Women's Prisons howardleague.org/blog/stop-building-womens-prisons/

They also have a petition, but please note MNHQ this link is NOT the link for the petition!

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