Trans campaigners want to abolish prisons - wonder why?

[stumbledin]

... Mermaids, Stonewall, Be:North, CliniQ, Consortium, Galop, Gendered Intelligence, GIRES, and Sparkle have partnered together with the aim of creating “lasting change for trans communities in healthcare and criminal justice systems.” The working group published three “community engagement reports” for their TRANSforming Futures series after listening to “a diverse range of trans people in England.” Continue reading The Prison System is Transphobic and Must be Abolished, Say Transgender Activists | Women Are Human.

... Participants are calling to abolish prisons, explaining that “work on abolition directly confronts criminalisation of trans communities.”

... The report does not provide suggestions on how to manage such violent and sexual predators as murderers, rapists and child rapists in the absence of a prison system. ...

(So male prisoners who have been found guilty of violence against women can now trans(fer) to a women's prison, and in the future not do any prison time at all. Really??)

Info from www.womenarehuman.com/prisons-are-transphobic-and-must-be-abolished-say-transgender-activists/

Link to the actual pamphlet www.transformingfuturespartnership.co.uk/criminal-justice funded by the National Lottery Community Fund.

@andyoldlabour

jj1968

If you do a bit of research, I think you will find that DandyMandy has said nothing which isn't true and well documented. Both "Drill" music and Hiphop glorify misogynistic behaviour.

You might want to listen to the lyrics of some of the bands gender critical icon Miranda Yardley used to promote before criticising black culture.

True colours emerging though, that's what we need, more sunlight.

So do we think that the 500 new prison places for women (UK) are actually going to be used for the purpose of housing all those extremely violent women or is there more of a demand from elsewhere?

@Dalyesque

So do we think that the 500 new prison places for women (UK) are actually going to be used for the purpose of housing all those extremely violent women or is there more of a demand from elsewhere?

That's a pretty big increase! Where is that from?

There's to much whataboutery and derailing for me to have read the full thread so can somebody tell me what these transactivists propose as an alternative to prison for criminals both violent or otherwise?

Announced a couple of weeks ago. It was suggested by the minister that it was because there will soon be 20000 more police on the streets, presumably concentrating on arresting troublesome women. Given that all the organisations concerned with women prisoners and indeed the Government have worked on reducing the numbers of women in prison and providing alternatives it seems a surprising . I think they would be unwilling to disclose another group of prisoners who might need such facilities ( or maybe they were told not to say in case it put said group in a bad light)

They don't say what they would do with violent criminals.

@HermitsLife

There's to much whataboutery and derailing for me to have read the full thread so can somebody tell me what these transactivists propose as an alternative to prison for criminals both violent or otherwise?

Alternatives include: -"Compulsory education" for hate crime offenders (i.e. anyone who has said something 'transphobic'). "-Decriminalise mental health" is another recommendation, which doesn't really make sense (having mental health issues isn't criminalised; that they can contribute to being involved in criminal activity is different).

• Decriminalising sex work.

@DandyMandy

You keep going. You're the one picking and choosing what to listen to. I don't pander to the mens rights mob.

My guess is that this thread is being watched for suitable screenshots.

Thanks @notyourhandmaid with some detail, proper research and funding some of this could be helpful to the wider community, although Compulsory Education sends a chill down my spine.

It doesn't address what we do with violent offenders, sex offenders and criminals who are otherwise a danger to society.

It is interesting how these proposals are large on big ideas but always lack the details and practical administration.

While the abolishing prisons bit was eyebrow raising I found myself far more concerned about the frequent mention of prostitution and brothels needing decriminalisation in order to keep transwomen out of prison.

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

While the abolishing prisons bit was eyebrow raising I found myself far more concerned about the frequent mention of prostitution and brothels needing decriminalisation in order to keep transwomen out of prison.

Is there any data on that?

@Tibtom

my son was at a hardcore male cat B prison and he became friends with and helped a black Trans woman who was on his wing - he is intelligent and empathetic - he said half the wing left her alone and protected her, the other half were horrendous - not ok!

It is an issue for the men's prison service to ensure all men are safe within their prisons.

We are in the middle of a global pandemic and before that, massive cuts to public services - what you say is absolutely how it should be but it’s not - I would support LGBTQ wings in prisons but some might argue that’s just another form of discrimination - it seems the safest option to me ...

There was a peculiar mix of trans people as victims and trans people as offenders. Surely each group has different needs? It ends up be misleading - see the bit attached which ends up implying that it is trans people committing the hate crime offences whereas I am pretty sure they mean hate crimes against trans people. It's not the most coherent document. They'd do themselves a favour by separating out victims and offenders problems and solutions and within that amab and afab.

For example the report claims that transmen who commit domestic violence are treated much more harshly by the courts than transwomen who commit dv but then that kind of gets lost in the talk of TW in sex work and hate incidents.

Good to see a recommendation of new refuges and services catering to trans needs. That's a much better solution for trans people than trying to get opposite sex services to function well for them as well as the core service users.

Women aren't safe from male people anywhere anymore. Even on a forum like this. To want to abolish prisons without dealing with the spectrum of male entitlement that includes violence is naive and dangerous.

YY.

I think people need to see the report for what it is. At the start, it is clear that it is not a policy document, but rather a community consultation and write-up thereof. In other words, it reflects the views of the trans community or at least that part that contributed, but it isn't making policy recommendations from this.

I'm glad to hear that YetAnotherSpartacus, as having skimmed the doc, I was equally alarmed to read a suggestion to "Decriminalise Mental Health" for transpeople. What does this even mean? As far as I'm aware, having a mental illness or being sectioned under the Mental Health Act are not criminal offences?

It's very harmful and stigmatising to those suffering mental illness and detained for their own safety, to assume a link with criminality or risk to others.

Or is it being suggested that trans people diagnosed with mental illness, deemed at risk of committing criminal acts or harm to others, should not be detained and treated, but non-trans people should?

re Government plans for women's prisons.

Response from Women in Prison www.womeninprison.org.uk/news/joint-statement-from-womens-centres-and-womens-specialist-providers-about-plans-to-build-new-womens-prison-places

And from Agenda weareagenda.org/women-prisons/

I admit I was a bit flip in my OP but this was more that it seems yet again the trans voice (which after all is a very small % of the population) is getting access to funding to write reports, which no doubt some lazy decision maker will then just use when faced with having to make a trans positive statement.

Apart from the slap in the face to all those who have been campaigning for years to improve conditions for prisoners, and that women are by and large in prison for minor offences (not paying their tv licence), is just another instance where this vocal minority is pushing itself to the front on the basis that they are the most victimised etc., etc..

I am sure there are other minority groups who would like the prison system to recognise their needs, whether religion, diet, or ....

I dont want to be part of responding to yet another thread being derailed but the idea that we have an NHS and welfare system because of communists if so pathetically silly.

Even allowing for the Labour Party statement, we have an NHS because of the huge social impact on WWII on this country. Ideas that might have seemed alien seemed like a just reward not just for those who did the fighting but for those who endured hardship in homes and kept industry and farming going. The homes fit for heroes was a popular vote winner not just after WWII for also WWI. And this is why Labour was able to beat war hero Churchill in the post war election.

And look how many socialist (or is that communist!!) decisions our multi millionaire Chancellor has implemented in response to the currrent crisis caused by the pandemic.

Having a positive communal response to a shared crisis isn't something to be sneered at.

The problem is too often the people who take the decisions aren't the ones suffering because of austerity or institutional racism or sexism.

I'm not quite sure I grasp what you are saying Hettie - but I think that the report is pretty clear re what it is on about - i.e. it contains the results of a community consultation.

MH is a hot button issue. If you look for other reports and consultations I think you might find there is some consensus around the issues you raise for all communities and not just trans.

I've been involved in similar projects (writing up results from community consultations) and they are what they are - a reflection of community voices.

Reading that one with a GC eye it's easy to see 'the same old' in it and many aspects we don't agree with - but the suggestions within are not policy recommendations in their current form.

I'm confused as to why they are making an extra 500 spaces for women?

Is it too address long term over crowding or what?

Maybe as there are so many less women in prison, families have to travel further to visit? This is a big issue.

The issues of the prisoners in the male estate, across the board. Are very different to the women's.

I have no idea why people see male on male violence in prisons as just one of those things. There was a heart breaking story about a young man who killed himself in prison who had a complex background of mental illness and drug abuse. He was failed. I can find a link if anyone wants.

The issue of how prisons impact people, I worry. A lot of people with mental health problems or terrible childhoods end up in the system.

Incarceration is important for those who are dangerous. Are likely to do it again. Have done something awful.

Prison is for

Protect the public
Justice seen to be done
Rehabilitation

It's a massive conversation. And totally different to the USA which is another thread entirely.

Again if anyone is interested www.prisonreformtrust.org.uk are the ones to support/ follow.

For race related police issues then this is s good site -inquest. I live in met area where the police are pretty good at killing black men even without being routinely armed

www.inquest.org.uk/

And Google gave me this as well that I admit I've only skimmed

irr.org.uk/article/mental-health-police-deaths/

I read the link as well and was also confused as it was mainly asking the opinions of victims of crime.

I have no doubt that trans people as a group have issues with the police. Same as, well, any number of groups.

The feeling I got was that the respondents were scared of being criminalised themselves. This is a (realistic) fear that many other groups feel.

Yet again. I wonder. Why it's seen as unique to the trans community. To not trust the police. To not report. To KNOW that the criminal justice system is not for them. It is NOT FOR THEM.

I see a lot of stuff about how white middle class women are free from the threat of male violence. I don't understand this.

I haven't trusted the police since I was. Dunno. I have had experiences with the met. I don't trust them. I don't like them. When I see police I feel worried. I mean not that you see them on the street much.

They aren't working for the public. The police work to protect the ruling classes. Sorry that sounds a bit mad Marxist.

It's true though.

I had a crime at my place. I had a crime I reported from my parents place.

My place (1 bed flat mostly rentals) nothing.

My parents. 2 very polite coppers turned up and were very nice and stayed for ages.

The police do not work for the people. They work to protect the important people.

Sorry that's a rant. But it's true of the met at least.

Oh and they're good at killing people and lying about it

Jean Charles menezes
Sean rigg
Smiley culture. Suss as fuck
And so many more

RIP to all the black men who have died in custody at the hands of the met.

Also Ian Tomlinson RIP

I will have missed people I'm sorry.

Can point me to the stats for trans people who have died at the hands of the met and the police have LIED AND LIED?

You see these assertions. About who is the most oppressed. Come on then. Tell me. Show me.

Not hate crimes. Being murdered by the police. Let's hear it.

Thank you for the link jj, I've been meaning to read this book for a while.

www.feministes-radicales.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Angela-Davis-Are_Prisons_Obsolete.pdf

It's a devastating account of how, in the US, slavery morphed into the prison industrial complex and how, in the context of capitalism and globalisation, the US model of profitable prisons has been exported around the world. Everyone should read it.

However Angela Davis never quite grapples with the thorny issue of what to do with violent offenders and how to prevent them committing further violent offences. She discusses it a bit at the very end of the book but it's just not good enough:

Thus, aside from minimizing, through various strategies, the kinds of behaviors that will bring people into contact with the police and justice systems, there is the question of how to treat those who assault the rights and bodies of others. Many organizations and individuals both in the United States and other countries offer alternative modes of making justice. In limited instances, some governments have attempted to implement alternatives that range from conflict resolution to restorative or reparative justice. Such scholars as Herman Bianchi have suggested that crime needs to be defined in terms of tort and, instead of criminal law, should be reparative law. In his words, "[The lawbreaker] is thus no longer an evil-minded man or woman, but simply a debtor, a liable person whose human duty is to take responsibility for his or her acts, and to assume the duty of repair."

(pp 113-4)

Davis's approach depends on the perpetrators of violent crime being sorry for what they have done.

Also it depends on society's ability to evaluate the debt or the 'duty of repair' owed to victims of violent crime. I don't think it's right or possible to put a $$$ value on the harm done to victims of violent assault, sexual assault, CSA, rape, murder ... a violent criminal is not 'simply a debtor' and it's absolutely right that we don't treat these two as the same.

The example given for this approach is Amy Biehl who was brutally murdered age 26 during the course of her activism in the last days of apartheid. The four men who were convicted of stabbing and stoning Amy to death were sentenced to 18 years. They then petitioned to the Truth and Reconciliation Commision and their apology was accepted by Amy's family. The men were released after one year in prison and two of them were later given plots of land by her family to help them rebuild their lives. Amy continues to be dead.

This is awful but I get it (sort of - really not sure about the gifts of land). Where there is a chance of ending decades long violent conflict, or decades long systems of violent oppression, it may sometimes be worth making horribly unjust and heartbreaking compromises in order to avoid several more decades worth of victims.

But this does nothing to address the people (massively overwhelmingly male) who are in prison for violent and/or sexual crimes in the UK. We are not in a war situation and vanishingly few violent criminals in prison today committed their crimes because of politics.

Nowhere in this book does Angela Davis suggest what should happen to rapists, serial rapists, child abusers, sadistic murderers, serial killers, family anihilators bla bla. She doesn't give any suggestions for how we should deal with people like John Worboys, Fred and Rose West, Ian Huntley, Jimmy Savile, Ian Brady and Myra Hindley or any of the other equally sadistic murderers and abusers whose crimes have not (yet) made national headlines.

She talks about sexual abuse of female prisoners and is very eloquent about the way sexual abuse is institutionalised in female prisons (and it is, she's right!) but she doesn't suggest any ways of dealing with sexual abusers. She doesn't really consider the subject of violent offenders beyond the example above, of murder committed in the course of political conflict.

Sadistic murderers and abusers are not sorry and they will do it again if they get the opportunity. No 'anticarceral' movement is worth listening to unless it comes up with solid solutions to this issue.

@jj1968
Yes, because they’ll just sit on this research and do nothing with it at all...
Also, they’re not a university, this hasn’t been done just out of academic curiosity.
Do you understand how campaigning groups work?

Still, at least you’re back on topic now, your derailing earlier in the thread nearly had me calling British Transport Police