Q&A thread for New Posters

[CharlieParley]

Welcome to the FWR board and welcome to the debate. If you're new here and have been told your questions might be better on their own thread, but you're not comfortable starting your own, then please feel free to ask your question here.

I'll try my best to answer and some of our other regulars might pop in too.

I have met a few non-binary people who I can’t tell what their ‘biological sex’ is....In terms of how that person moves through their everyday life - how people refer to them, what spaces they’re allowed into - what do you think should happen?
The effects of testosterone are so strong that it can be difficult to tell the sex of transmen, particularly when they are young. People who have gone through male puberty generally set off my senses as male, and I would be anxious to encounter them in a space I expected to be female-only. Transmen (born female) I'd be happy to share with, though for others a "male" appearance might be triggering.

Interesting the mention of visual impairment up thread. I read of someone overhearing a blind couple saying that they found it difficult to know someone's pronouns these days, as without sight, they clocked people as their original sense - using their other senses esp hearing, touch and smell it was obvious to them that someone was male or female. Without the clues of hairstyle and dress they couldn't know that someone was expecting/hoping/meaning to present as the opposite sex.

I see YY posted often here. Looking on Google, my best guess is yes yes. Is it something else?

@TinyCake

Thank you. The passport field is sex not gender so I wasn't sure how someone could get it changed if they had just changed gender not sex so thought people must change sex but even the government link above says gender. No idea if that makes sense. Anyway, thank you for answering my questions. It's a lot to get my head around.

The conflation of the two is confusing! 'Gender' being used as an euphemism for 'biological sex' (the old 'yes please!' answer to 'sex' on forms) is part of this.

I have seen this has been answered, but I think the more the merrier.

I don't like redefining commonly understood words (e.g. literally) so that sits wrong with me but if it is something everyone agrees with then I suppose I would have to get used to it. No, women were not asked and many of us are fighting against the changes of the language we use to describe ourselves.

For example, people talking about intersex people aka people with disorders of sexual development tell me that sex is complicated, there is no binary male and female apparently.

It is 'differences' in sex development. It is not actually complicated at all.

That is out dated biological understanding. The science says a sex binary does not actually exist. This means trans people can be the opposite sex. That doesn't seem right does it? Eggs and sperm are still real aren't they? There isn't some other sex is there?

No, there is no other 'sex'. There is this theory being perpetuated that people's medical conditions, DSDs, can be used to destabilise the eon's old understanding of the nature of sex. This destabilisation is key to being able to say that a male is a women if they feel they are. It argues that these medical conditions represent other 'sexes' because they don't fit neatly into the supposedly strict 'xx/xy' chromosome application.

They keep not mentioning that with modern techniques those people with DSDs are either male or female. In fact, they support the binary not destabilise it. Because what they represent is that there is differences in people's bodies but they are all based around producing small gametes (sperm) or large gametes (ova). Sometimes the body does not work as it should. The techniques look at genitals, reproductive organs, hormones, chromosomes etc. In fact, our cells will go back to trying to produce hormones and cell reactions as per their design if someone still has ovaries or testes and stops their cross sex hormones or suppressants.

Those arguing that sex changes include for instance, breasts, cosmetically changed genitals etc. But these are cosmetic are superficial, just like the argument.

Aren't intersex people one sex or the other but with something that has gone wrong in development? yes.

Anyway of sex and gender are different then what have congenital medical conditions of sex organs got to do with trans people? Good question.

I thought they were concerned with gender? If transpeople all have intersex conditions won't that make it super easy to identify who is really trans?

Wouldn't it just? Some trans people state they have female brains.... ummmm.... no. If this was true, a test could be done to show they are the other sex. And obviously, a gene test cannot prove this either. So, no.....no physical tests exist.

I don't think trans people have DSDs though, do they? Some people with DSDs are trans people. But not the other way around.

So, I really don't get what DSDs and trans have to do with each other. Because people arguing to destabilise known and accepted science need to use something, or in this case, someone.

I find it hard to believe scientists have said male and female biological sex classes are old hat.

If you see an scientist doing this, please look further. Look into who they are, what their speciality actually is and what is published, and often it is easy to pick they may have a motivating factor such as a loved one etc. Also, look to whether the institution they work for allows them to say anything differently. Many women are afraid of losing their jobs if they speak out.

I grew up on a farm, the different between a ewe and a ram was obvious and there was no spectrum of sexes! You and me both. There are NO third gametes in mammals and we are but animals.

Can anyone explain why I keep seeing biological sex is not binary in debates about trans issues?

You will see a bimodal distribution constantly being presented as evidence. But it is all in the way you present the data I guess. As I have said, it has been accepted for a long time that there is lots of differences between bodies of the same sex including those with DSDs of that sex. If you see this chart come up, ask who is presenting it 'who gets to decide which person is more female than another?'.
Who exactly is the arbitrator of femaleness? And how is this not offensive to anyone who has any medical condition, including hysterectomies.

Hope that helps a little. I am no expert but I love to see this argued on twitter.

I have a question, about lady brains and bloke brains.

It is often said that these are different, and people will state that it can be detected using scans (I think).

Is there any data which has been produced by people (experts in the field) looking at scans of many different brains, of male and female sexed people, and being able to put them into two piles, male and female, and get it right when the only data available to them is the scans or whatever they are, with no information included about whether the person in whom each brain scanned resides is male or female?

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

When the IOC looked at it in 2015 they used a single study of 7 athletes which was carried out by a TW which concluded that since transitioning they couldn’t run as fast. The fact that they were all considerably older than when they were at their fastest was brushed aside

The usual magnificent standard of trans research But I’m a bit surprised that the IOC associated itself with such junk statistics.

They didn't waste much time on the decision. The vast majority of the decision makers were male and it was all about removing restrictions from a group of their own sex. They sought no opposing views, and they did not seek to talk to organisations representing elite female athletes. It's a familiar tale...

Hi me again sorry. The gender/sex thing has sent me off one load of what ifs. So you can't actually change sex just gender but statistics confuse the two so why don't they just ask gender if that is what they want to know. Also if anyone has any good links on the whole gender vs sex thing I'd like to do some more reading.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

I have a question, about lady brains and bloke brains.

It is often said that these are different, and people will state that it can be detected using scans (I think).

Is there any data which has been produced by people (experts in the field) looking at scans of many different brains, of male and female sexed people, and being able to put them into two piles, male and female, and get it right when the only data available to them is the scans or whatever they are, with no information included about whether the person in whom each brain scanned resides is male or female?

IIRC, there's was an MRI study which looked at a million brain scans, half male half female. It was impossible to say which was which in a way that beat the odds of guessing.

There are some structural differences between the brains of female people and the brains of male people. Apart from an average 10% difference in size, any other differences are small.

Because our brains are plastic and elastic (they can change and more importantly be formed), it's next to impossible to determine if any potential differences are down to nature or nurture and how much of the difference may be down to nature and how much to nurture.

So the answer is no.

Just to add to CharleyParley's excellent brain post. The brain fibres in female brains have been found to be more delicate and more prone to injury too.

Anyone on twitter who is interested in reading about the conflation between sex and gender, plus the utilizing of DSDs, here is an account that has compiled resources.

The account is sexdefined.

twitter.com/sexdefined/status/1281584867638116352?s=21

@Okokokbear

What do gender critical people want? Or if this varies which it probably does could you say what generally as a group gc people are looking for?

I want boys to be able to be sparkly and twirly and like princesses and dancing without people suggesting that it might mean he's "really a girl" and he can be his "true self" if he has surgery and hormones.

Random question. When did hair length start being used as a gender marker? When I was at school (70/80s) half the girls in my class had short hair, half long. It seems different now, girls with short hair get asked if they are non-binary.

I keep seeing the Twitter people saying that radical feminists and gender critical women are bio essentialists who want men and women to be 1950s stereotypes based on their birth sex, whereas trans allies want people to break out of those stereotypes. Is this a correct characterisation of gender critical views?

I hear that hardly anyone changes their minds after gender transition and this is evidence that gender identity is a real solid stable thing. Is that true?

Tinycake for a good discussion on sex and gender and also biological differences for those with medical conditions see Fair Play for Women.
fairplayforwomen.com/resources/sex-vs-gender/

fairplayforwomen.com/chromosomes-biological-sex-gender/#multiples

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

I keep seeing the Twitter people saying that radical feminists and gender critical women are bio essentialists who want men and women to be 1950s stereotypes based on their birth sex, whereas trans allies want people to break out of those stereotypes. Is this a correct characterisation of gender critical views?

not even remotely

GC women believe that gender are the stereotypes associated with biological sex e.g. boys like football, getting muddy, wear trousers and have short hair: girls like pink, sparkles, have long hair and like dolls

there is no way to describe what gender identity is without regressing to gender stereotypes around clothing, presentation and feelings

GC women believe that you can have a buzz cut, wear trousers, be a welder and it makes you no less a woman than someone with long hair, high heels and lipstick because woman isnt a feeling but a biological reality. Similarly a man who likes wearing dresses and make up is just as much a man who wears trousers, short hair and likes drinking beer and watching football.

Is it true that some toddlers and preschoolers are identified by their parents as trans?

I thought you had to be an adult or at least have reached puberty to be trans.

How would you know your kid is trans?

In my experience little kids barely know what men and women are. Mine went through a phase of thinking anyone with long hair must be a woman, even Bill Bailey with his little pony tail!!!

Thinking of a comparison with gayness, surely people do not usually accept for certain that they are homosexual until they are well through puberty. How come people think trans becomes clearer sooner?

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

I hear that hardly anyone changes their minds after gender transition and this is evidence that gender identity is a real solid stable thing. Is that true?

destransitioners network

www.detransadv.com/

we know that in the UK, GIDS do not follow up people who simply stop coming to them so of course there's no way to properly quantify it because the information isnt recorded

Why do I see many more lesbians being gender critical than gay men?

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

I hear that hardly anyone changes their minds after gender transition and this is evidence that gender identity is a real solid stable thing. Is that true?

No one know how many detransitioners there actually are. No one has recorded this. The clinics do no follow up at all.

It seems that this is a growing group or that at least they are now speaking out.

If you think your under 5 child could be trans then you could buy them one of these:

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

Why do I see many more lesbians being gender critical than gay men?

Because they’re men and TW aren’t trying to aggressively get in their spaces

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

I keep seeing the Twitter people saying that radical feminists and gender critical women are bio essentialists who want men and women to be 1950s stereotypes based on their birth sex, whereas trans allies want people to break out of those stereotypes. Is this a correct characterisation of gender critical views?

Good q there.

This is a strange accusation that is frequently made but has no basis in fact, and is potentially an example of DARVO tactics (where a perpetrator turns an accusation against them into an accusation against their victim).

Radical and/or gender critical feminists believe that women are oppressed on the basis of their biological sex, and that sex-based stereotypes are to be challenged. Saying that your sex determines your behaviour - e.g. you are male so you like playing with trucks - would be a bad thing. Sex-based stereotypes are used to hurt both men and women - e.g. expecting men to never show their feelings or to be aggressive, expecting women to be always putting others before themselves. (Sometimes people who are gender-critical will focus on how these stereotypes hurt both sexes, other times they will focus on women only, as the disadvantaged group in this hierarchical system.)

Radical and/or gender critical feminists do not believe that anyone's behaviour in society is determined by their biological sex with the exception of their physical capabilities when it comes to reproducing. This follows the standard meaning of 'sex' when it comes to categorising all living things.

Trans rights activism, a movement which does not include all transgender individuals, believes that your gender - the set of sex-based stereotypes linked to you - is more important than your sex, so that a child who likes playing with trucks is a boy because they are doing 'what boys do'. Sometimes the idea of an innate, biological 'gender identity' is suggested as a basis for this way of categorising people, but this does not relate to anything measurable and is not consistent with demands that someone's gender identity never be measured or assessed or questioned in any way.

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

Is it true that some toddlers and preschoolers are identified by their parents as trans?

I thought you had to be an adult or at least have reached puberty to be trans.

How would you know your kid is trans?

In my experience little kids barely know what men and women are. Mine went through a phase of thinking anyone with long hair must be a woman, even Bill Bailey with his little pony tail!!!

Thinking of a comparison with gayness, surely people do not usually accept for certain that they are homosexual until they are well through puberty. How come people think trans becomes clearer sooner?

Good questions, but again, ones that we can't answer here, because in order to answer these questions you have to believe that children can be transgender.

Some people, including psychologist Diane Ehrensaft, think that children can be trans, including even babies who can't yet speak!

“I have a colleague who is transgender.” Ehrensaft tells her audience at an education event in Santa Cruz. “There is a video of him as a toddler- he was assigned female at birth- tearing barrettes out of then-her hair. And throwing them on the ground. And sobbing. That’s a gender message… they can show you what they want to play with… this child wore the little onesies with snap-ups between the legs and at age one this child would unsnap them to make a dress and have the dress flow… this was a child who was assigned male… that’s a pre-verbal communication.”

twitter.com/LilyLilyMaynard/status/1312474230299086848

More about Ehrensaft here:
4thwavenow.com/2016/09/29/gender-affirmative-therapist-baby-who-hates-barrettes-trans-boy-questioning-sterilization-of-11-year-olds-same-as-denying-cancer-treatment/

And more about so-called trans kids here:
lilymaynard.com/born-in-the-wrong-body-thats-not-what-we-meant/

Obviously, to anyone sane, the notion of 'trans children' is all based on stereotypes.

Both these websites have lots of other articles which might answer some of your questions.