Q&A thread for New Posters

[CharlieParley]

Welcome to the FWR board and welcome to the debate. If you're new here and have been told your questions might be better on their own thread, but you're not comfortable starting your own, then please feel free to ask your question here.

I'll try my best to answer and some of our other regulars might pop in too.

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

You're supposed to use the prefix cis. As in cis woman.

But surely a transman is not a cis woman but is biologically a woman? So that terminology doesn't cover the group formerly known as women or females. I am trying to work out what the new word is.

A transman is a man. Their vagina is a man's vagina. Or they are a 'vagina owner'.

Their sex is self determined. It's not necessary to use the word female in relation to them in any way.

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

Is it true that a married person can stop their partner from being legally trans? The spousal veto? Why on earth would that be OK? Why would there even be such a law in the first place? Why would feminists object to removing that law? Doesn't that just show up that you don't want people to be allowed to be trans?

It is not a veto. It is a marriage exit clause which allows either party to obtain an annulment before a GRC is issued. It's particularly important for women who cannot utilise divorce for religious or cultural reasons.

More information can be found here:

www.transwidowsvoices.org/gra-reform-guidance

And here:

uncommongroundmedia.com/spousal-exit-clause/

Some people point to the hate crime stats but I think I’m right in saying that a recent foi found that none of the reported incidents (which include misgendering and offending a trans person) turned out to be an actual crime and bearing in mind that any form of physical violence towards a person is a crime, what does that say about the ‘rising hate crime against trans people’?

Do you have a link to this or is it just another gender critical fabrication?

i'm sure you're familiar with the annual Hate Crime Statistics report which shows quite clear that hate Crimes targetting trans people are just as likely to involve violence, including violence resulting in injury as the other protected strands.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/925968/hate-crime-1920-hosb2920.pdf

It is not a veto. It is a marriage exit clause which allows either party to obtain an annulment before a GRC is issued. It's particularly important for women who cannot utilise divorce for religious or cultural reasons.

More information can be found here:

<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.transwidowsvoices.org/gra-reform-guidance" target="_blank">http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.transwidowsvoices.org/gra-reform-guidance And here:

https://uncommongroundmedia.com/spousal-exit-clause/

This is very useful, Tinsel. I hope the pp will find it easier to counter the TRA arguments they have read on Twitter.

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

Sports again. Twitter tells me that we know transwomen are not going to dominate women's sport because transwomen have been allowed to take part in women's competitions for years and none have ever won an Olympic medal in a women's category. Is that true?

If so, why is there any fuss about letting transwomen compete against women? Surely it would be like letting a kid join the adults race, they'd not cause any real bother to the elites but it keeps them happy and engaged in sport. Right?

As said upthread, the previous restrictions were much more stringent requiring surgery (bearing in mind the vast majority of TW have no surgery)

When the IOC looked at it in 2015 they used a single study of 7 athletes which was carried out by a TW which concluded that since transitioning they couldn’t run as fast. The fact that they were all considerably older than when they were at their fastest was brushed aside

Also no one is denying TW the right ti play sport, only that they play within their biological sex category. If TW are unwelcome in mens sport that again is not women’s problem to solve

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6083207/

Being transgender has nothing to do with being " intersex" or rather having a medical condition which causes DSD.

That's an interesting stat, jj.
Of course, I believe the PP was talking about hate incidents rather than hate crimes which is a completely different thing.
I also notice your graph uses percentages rather than numbers.
If you look at numbers from the same document (attached) and then apply those percentages to those numbers, it's much lower. I also very much doubt any of the violent crimes within those figures were committed by feminists.
And of course, we all know that crimes motivated by someone's sex aren't recorded as hate crimes in law at all. Would you be willing to support sex being added to protected characteristics for the recording of hate crimes?

In terms of how that person moves through their everyday life - how people refer to them, what spaces they’re allowed into - what do you think should happen?

Helen, I’m sorry you feel your questions aren’t being answered. I thought they were being answered. I accept that you meet some people who call themselves non-binary, and you may not know what sex they are.

I would call them by whatever name they choose.
As you are talking about you LGBT network, I expect you are expected to refer to them as “they” (or whstever they choose, as that is what the group wishes; if you disagreed you would probably not be in a T group but an LGB group.

What spaces they’re allowed into: that’s a very different question. Males must use male or mixed-sex spaces. And that is most of the space in the world. Only female people may use women’s single-sex spaces, as that’s not a whim or a privilege but a necessary recognition of women's vulnerability to male predators.

If you don’t know someone’s sex, but find out that a male person (however he identifies himself) has intruded into a women’s space, I would expect you to ask him to leave. And I would not stay in a network in which his behaviour was encouraged.

I hope this is helpful.

When the IOC looked at it in 2015 they used a single study of 7 athletes which was carried out by a TW which concluded that since transitioning they couldn’t run as fast. The fact that they were all considerably older than when they were at their fastest was brushed aside

The usual magnificent standard of trans research But I’m a bit surprised that the IOC associated itself with such junk statistics.

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

Sports. I am told that if a male reduces his testosterone by taking medication then he is weaker than women. Apparently the Olympic committee have done loads of research and decided it is both fair and appropriate for a testosterone depleted male to compete in women's sports. Obviously they are experts in sporting performance, anti-doping, and Paralymic categories (remember the debates over Pistorius racing on blades against able bodied competitors?).

Is that all really correct?

Seems a bit unlikely to me. My uncle had treatment for prostate cancer that seriously messed with his male hormones and he was still much bigger and stronger than me afterwards. He didn't become a petite delicate flower. Mind you neither of us are Olympians! And people on Twitter might have wrongly represented what the sporting authorities actually said.

Can anyone clarify what the actual situation is?

more on sport

Male High School Athletes vs Female Olympians

boysvswomen.com/#/

I have a question please:

What are the references to digging/off to the allotment/spade work etc?

Is this donating money to feminist causes or activism more generally?

yes it is MNnickname - we cannot post direct links to crowdfunders for feminist causes on here

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Can anyone explain why I keep seeing biological sex is not binary in debates about trans issues?

Because it's a useful gotcha argument for trans activists. There's no such thing as biological sex because some medical disorders exist which disprove the sex binary, therefore men can have a "woman's brain".

My DH, usually pretty GC came out with this the other day because he'd seen a post on a Facebook thread where a 'scientist' said this, that sex is a spectrum. I was like, WTAF of course it isn't! Intersex/DSD don't prove this.

Hi, so sorry if this has been answered. I tried looking through but just kept seeing stuff about sealions but also some interesting questions.

Can someone explain what people objected to in the census questions? I saw a lot about it on twitter but I need it broken down simply really as I found it hard to follow.

we cannot post direct links to crowdfunders for feminist causes on here
It's not actually a specific prohibition on this board and these causes - direct links to any sort of crowdfunders etc arent allowed anywhere on MN. I think it's intended as an anti spamming measure and also gives potential donors time to think and check into the cause rather than just clicking through.

Similarly with petition links - they're only allowed on the Petitions and Activism board, which unfortunately most people don't know about or forget to check. It's worth taking a look through every now and again to see if there's anything you'd like to support.

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard

@TinyCake

Hi, so sorry if this has been answered. I tried looking through but just kept seeing stuff about sealions but also some interesting questions.

Can someone explain what people objected to in the census questions? I saw a lot about it on twitter but I need it broken down simply really as I found it hard to follow.

The census guidance says that you can answer the question about your sex with whatever you have on official documents like a passport etc. The point being that it is not difficult to change your sex marker on those documents, and a number of trans people have done so.

If those people answer according to the guidance, the data collected will be false and useless for the purpose of accurately recording how many women there are, for example

It also won't help trans people either, as there is an optional 'gender identity' question, so any TW who said they were female based on their passport rather than their sex would likely also say they had a 'woman gender identity' and would invisible as a trans person.

If people want to collect data on 'gender identity', that's fine. We collect data on other belief systems, no big deal.

But the material reality questions need to be answered accurately, not according to how we feel about ourselves. Accurate data is the point of the census. Validation of personal beliefs is not.

From what I was told, the word binary in terms of sex, relates to how many types of gamete are required to reproduce.

The fact that there are disorders of development in terms of chromosomes is irrelevant. No one produces a third a gamete.

DSD arguments are meant to make the definition of sex difficult. Because a TRA will ask what are you basing your definition of sex on? And if you say, eg, a vagina, then you get 'what about a woman born without a vagina' argument.

If you say chromosomes, then you get the DSD argument.

Obviously, my favourite (for women) is adult human female. Because the second part of that definition is 'of or denoting the sex who bears eggs'. And the keyword is denoting.

But, the DSD/intersex derail is meant to make the definition of sex, and therefore a woman, linguistically difficult. In order that you can claim anyone can be one. Specifically, a man.

Obviously it doesn't even follow logically, never mind in any other way. But that's the reason.

Thank you @BuntingEllacott, I understand now.

I didn't know it was possible to change what your passport says - do you need an official letter from a doctor or something to prove the change in sex?

@TinyCake

Thank you *@BuntingEllacott*, I understand now.

I didn't know it was possible to change what your passport says - do you need an official letter from a doctor or something to prove the change in sex?

Details here: www.gov.uk/changing-passport-information/gender#:~:text=Other%20name%20changes-,Gender%20change,is%20likely%20to%20be%20permanent

It's not, of course, a literal change in sex. It's what is known as a 'legal fiction' (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_fiction) to allow male-born individuals be counted as 'women' (or vice-versa).

A GRC (gender recognition certificate) is provided on the basis of being transgender ('living in/as a gender') rather than on the basis of being transsexual (having undergone surgery). www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate

I changed my passport to have two names on it (married and professional) in a matter of about ten minutes and at the cost of a fiver. I suspect I could have done the same to alter my perceived or believed gender too. Not going to try!

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

Sports. I am told that if a male reduces his testosterone by taking medication then he is weaker than women. Apparently the Olympic committee have done loads of research and decided it is both fair and appropriate for a testosterone depleted male to compete in women's sports. Obviously they are experts in sporting performance, anti-doping, and Paralymic categories (remember the debates over Pistorius racing on blades against able bodied competitors?).

Is that all really correct?

Seems a bit unlikely to me. My uncle had treatment for prostate cancer that seriously messed with his male hormones and he was still much bigger and stronger than me afterwards. He didn't become a petite delicate flower. Mind you neither of us are Olympians! And people on Twitter might have wrongly represented what the sporting authorities actually said.

Can anyone clarify what the actual situation is?

Apparently the Olympic committee have done loads of research and decided it is both fair and appropriate for a testosterone depleted male to compete in women's sports.

Another study into transwomen in sport for you to look at

www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

Relating to this study:

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2020/11/06/bjsports-2020-102329

How again do you negate the benefits of male puberty? Studies have shown conclusively that hormone treatment has little effect (maybe 5-10% decrease) and this has been shown over different studies from different sources including a military study.

In fact, that ‘lauded’ studies by Harper that was presented and influenced the IOC was debunked immediately as having very little scientific robustness, and it was anecdotal at best. Sadly, it was used by the IOC but better research has become available since that disproves that study.

Thank you. The passport field is sex not gender so I wasn't sure how someone could get it changed if they had just changed gender not sex so thought people must change sex but even the government link above says gender. No idea if that makes sense. Anyway, thank you for answering my questions. It's a lot to get my head around.

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

If you want to see someone argue against all the strawman arguments put forward by activists around the inclusion of males in women's sports, I recommend following Ross Tucker (ScienceofSport) on Twitter, and Dr Emma Hilton (FondofBeetles).

They are very patient (usually) and answer questions readily. Ross Tucker was on the World Rugby committee that decided that transwomen should not be playing Rugby against women and is now very much up to speed on the research.

Dr Hilton is also one of the published authors of the study posted upthread.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

She regularly speaks about this and about the other studies that have been found lacking in robustness.

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

I see claims that straight women's willingness to have lesbians share spaces with them shows that objection to transwomen being present is bigotry not real fear. Apparently it shows that the problem is not over fear of sexually predatory behaviour because of course lesbians would present the same danger to women. What do you think of that argument?

This would only make sense if the rapes/assaults that women fear were all prompted by sexual desire. Rape and assault by men on women (and men on men) are about power. Though they may use sex in the assault, it isn't about sexual attraction. Women fear male violence. Lesbians obviously do not show male violence. So women do not fear lesbians. (seems strange to have to say this, but I'm assuming questions are asked in good faith)

mildly

For transmen though their hormones should definitely be performance enhancing so how are the anti-doping rules set to stop them smashing the men in competition? Have there been any test cases yet? Any transmen storming ahead of the natal men?

Females taking testosterone are indeed excluded from the women's sports. And you raise excellent question then about transmen smashing the men in competition. Why do you think that is not happening? Now that you have a lot of research links and articles.

It very much is in line with the findings. That males who have gone through male puberty have many advantages and that even with T, a female body rarely can compete at the same level.

Females who wish to play contact sport need to understand that they do this despite the increased risk of harm. I believe World Rugby has stated any female can play with the males if they sign a waiver. Why? Because most parts of the female body is more prone to injury than male bodies and when combined with the increase in power and speed that male bodies have, the effect can be very dangerous.

Particuarly in head injuries. Females have more delicate brain fibres (Swansea university study into female rugby players) and are more prone to brain injury, and dementia.