Q&A thread for New Posters

[CharlieParley]

Welcome to the FWR board and welcome to the debate. If you're new here and have been told your questions might be better on their own thread, but you're not comfortable starting your own, then please feel free to ask your question here.

I'll try my best to answer and some of our other regulars might pop in too.

@JoodyBlue

I think I may have been guilty in the past of sealioning. Because in a discussion I kept bringing the conversation back to "what is a woman?" In discussion with a TRA the answer is "anyone who feels like woman" and the rejoiner is "what does a woman feel like?" etc. The question is foundational which is why I kept asking it. In the end the person I was "conversing" with called me a curious bigot and flounced off. Do you reckon I was sealioning there guys?

You're drilling down into an illogical argument, to expose their motivation.

That's not sea lioning.

Sea lioning is to divert people from their purpose by asking silly questions.

@Helen8220

Thanks for setting this up!

Here’s a question I was thinking about last night - I have met a few non-binary people who I can’t tell what their ‘biological sex’ is. I don’t think it’s my business to ask about their medical history/genitalia. I am happy to use the pronouns they ask me to use.

There will obviously be people in their lives who know what biological sex characteristics they have - those involved in their medical treatment, sexual partners. There will also be certain authorities that have the information, given the law currently requires people’s biological sex to be registered (but one could dispute if that should be the case).

In terms of how that person moves through their everyday life - how people refer to them, what spaces they’re allowed into - what do you think should happen?

ok, so I'll say it. I am doubtful that you have actually met anyone who you could not tell if they were male or female. I am not young and have been in many varied situations, cultures, people expressing themselvs in many ways including experimenting with fashions, makeup hair, whatever but I have never been in a situation where I could genuinly not tell if someone was a man or woman, never, not once.

Following

@JoodyBlue

I think I may have been guilty in the past of sealioning. Because in a discussion I kept bringing the conversation back to "what is a woman?" In discussion with a TRA the answer is "anyone who feels like woman" and the rejoiner is "what does a woman feel like?" etc. The question is foundational which is why I kept asking it. In the end the person I was "conversing" with called me a curious bigot and flounced off. Do you reckon I was sealioning there guys?

I'd say no, as it is a genuine question. When I ask this question to people who ascribe to gender idology I want to hear what they have to say just in case anyone actually does one day give an explination of why someone born one sex is really the other sex. I never exclude the possibillity that it could happen.

“ JoodyBlue

I think I may have been guilty in the past of sealioning. Because in a discussion I kept bringing the conversation back to "what is a woman?" In discussion with a TRA the answer is "anyone who feels like woman" and the rejoiner is "what does a woman feel like?" etc. The question is foundational which is why I kept asking it. In the end the person I was "conversing" with called me a curious bigot and flounced off. Do you reckon I was sealioning there guys?”

I can’t answer the second question, but as someone you might well consider a ‘trans rights activist’, can I attempt to give an explanation of what I think gender identity is, other than ‘it’s just what you feel like’?

I believe a person’s gender identity is the part of their sense of self that results from growing up and living in a society where everyone is publicly labelled as male or female from birth, and subjected to a variety of powerful norms and expectations relating to that categorisation.

Regardless of the fact that my parents are pretty anti gender norms, and encouraged both me and my brother to wear/play with what we wanted regardless of whether they were typically for girls or boys, the influence of the media, other children, school etc inevitably played a big role in forming my sense of myself as a female. And I’m not trans, so I have accepted and incorporated all of that into my identity - I identify as a woman, and that means that I present myself in a way that causes others to automatically recognise me as a woman - I wear women’s clothes, I have long hair, i walk and talk in a certain way.

It’s complicated, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t real.

New here but oldish. In the 80s we just called people by the name they introduced themselves as. This applied to gay, straight, transsexual or androgynous people (the terms we tended to use back then). It all seemed so much easier.

I have to say, given this thread was set up to allow people like me to ask their questions, your answers don’t seem to me to be engaging in good faith with what I’ve asked.

I do not have a visual impairment. Clearly I can’t convince you that I couldn’t tell the biological sex of these people, but it is true. I am also not especially young, and I’ve met a variety of people. If I’d been forced to take a guess I probably could have put my money one way or the other, but I really wouldn’t have been surprised to find out I was wrong.

It’s not a hypothetical question - it’s a real question about real people and where they fit in the world

sealioning I once got a deletion for giving an accurate description of what sealioning is on a thread where someone was sealioning as a way of derailment. I didn’t accuse anyone but the sealion obviously didn’t like it & reported the post.

It’s not a hypothetical question - it’s a real question about real people and where they fit in the world

The question gets asked, regularly. The answer is, you go to the facility of your sex. Or you campaign for a third space.

The point is, it's not relevant to sex segregation. We don't decide to not have sex segregation, because of the small number of people who won't abide by it.

On a slightly different point, setting aside non-binary people, i’ve definitely met quite a few trans men who I would absolutely have assumed were born men, had I not known in the context they were trans. I’ve met a couple of trans women who similarly ‘passed’, though that’s not as common

@Lordamighty

sealioning I once got a deletion for giving an accurate description of what sealioning is on a thread where someone was sealioning as a way of derailment. I didn’t accuse anyone but the sealion obviously didn’t like it & reported the post.

Yes, despite me thinking it's weird, it can be an effective tactic.

@Helen8220

On a slightly different point, setting aside non-binary people, i’ve definitely met quite a few trans men who I would absolutely have assumed were born men, had I not known in the context they were trans. I’ve met a couple of trans women who similarly ‘passed’, though that’s not as common

Same answer.

“ Landlockedgirl

New here but oldish. In the 80s we just called people by the name they introduced themselves as. This applied to gay, straight, transsexual or androgynous people (the terms we tended to use back then). It all seemed so much easier.”

I don’t think that’s changed?

“ Datun

It’s not a hypothetical question - it’s a real question about real people and where they fit in the world

The question gets asked, regularly. The answer is, you go to the facility of your sex. Or you campaign for a third space.

The point is, it's not relevant to sex segregation. We don't decide to not have sex segregation, because of the small number of people who won't abide by it.”

Personally I don’t think toilets should be segregated by sex. Where possible (as in some places I’ve worked) every toilet should be wholly separate with its own basin and mirror

Regardless of the fact that my parents are pretty anti gender norms, and encouraged both me and my brother to wear/play with what we wanted regardless of whether they were typically for girls or boys, the influence of the media, other children, school etc inevitably played a big role in forming my sense of myself as a female. And I’m not trans, so I have accepted and incorporated all of that into my identity - I identify as a woman, and that means that I present myself in a way that causes others to automatically recognise me as a woman - I wear women’s clothes, I have long hair, i walk and talk in a certain way

I find this so interesting. I tend to agree with you - but at the same time, I see what happened to me as violent gendering - as being forced to act in a particular way that does not reflect how I would like to act.

As an example - I was told to sit with my knees together from a very young age, whereas male friends could sit how they wanted. I learned to do this, and do it in public, but resent it, and in private, I womanspread as much as I fucking please. I don't in public because it would contravene gender norms and I'd be censured and/or invite unwanted sexual attention.

I have no problems identifying as female because that's what I am. I am female and a woman, an adult human female - but that's different from my gender identity, which is (mostly) feminine and that is a patriarchal social construct that was imposed on me from without and which I (try to) reject.

That is why I am gender critical, whilst recognising the materiality and reality of biological sex. I also resented having periods and a female reproductive system, but that was reality, not anything I could do anything about, unlike gender, which, being social, can be changed and which both does (because it was imposed from without) and does not (because my preferred behaviours would be different) define who I am.

I think not having an identity is very freeing

I just am what I am

A woman

Wear what I want cut my hair how I want all that stuff

I just don’t believe in the identity stuff as if I did then how would it manifest itself ?

Do you have a visual impairment?

I thought this was a supportive thread for posters new to feminism chat? This kind of comment is unhelpful.

@Helen8220

“ Datun

It’s not a hypothetical question - it’s a real question about real people and where they fit in the world

The question gets asked, regularly. The answer is, you go to the facility of your sex. Or you campaign for a third space.

The point is, it's not relevant to sex segregation. We don't decide to not have sex segregation, because of the small number of people who won't abide by it.”

Do you think that a trans man, who appears to all the world to be a cis man, should use the women’s toilets? Isn’t that likely to bring them quite a lot of adverse attention?

Its got nothing to do with women's rights, or maintaining sex segregation. So I don't know why you keep asking.

I thought this was a supportive thread for posters new to feminism chat? This kind of comment is unhelpful

I agree.

Helen8220 do you think a trans woman, who was born male & went through male puberty, should be allowed to compete in the women’s events in sport? Don’t you think that it puts the female athletes at a disadvantage that can’t be overcome by training?

Thank you @WarOnWomen

@littlbrowndog

I think not having an identity is very freeing

I just am what I am

A woman

Wear what I want cut my hair how I want all that stuff

I just don’t believe in the identity stuff as if I did then how would it manifest itself ?

I think that's interesting because I don't think of myself as having an identity either. I just am.

I belong not to a group identity. I belong in a sex class and a race class.

Does that make sense?

Great idea for a thread. Would it also be helpful to new posters to clarify certain arguments that are regularly presented as a ‘gotcha’ or justification for certain views?

I was reminded this morning by a post on the NHS erasing women thread making a common point used by the trans activists (also sometimes referred to as TRAs) is that transwomen (born male otherwise they couldn’t be trans) are a ‘type’ of woman in the same way that black woman, disabled woman, short woman etc are all types of women.

I’m not the best at explaining but to suggest that male people who claim a female identity are as much a woman as a black woman is unbelievably racist. A black woman is a woman without any further qualification needed.

To suggest that someone not born female, not socialised as female, having experienced zero effect of having female biology on their lives - having to guard carefully against unwanted pregnancy, being most likely to experience sexual assault, fgm, being paid less due to sex inequality at work, dealing with agonising periods etc etc. can have an equal claim that they are a woman is just beyond wrong.

Helen8220, I've got a genuine question about gender identity.
What is the difference then between gender identity and gender stereotypes?
Can you give one characteristic of having a female gender identity that isn't a stereotype?
I always ask this question and I never get an answer.
You said you identify as a woman and that means you present yourself in a way that means people identify you as a woman and your examples are how you dress and long hair.
Surely you can understand why so many women have a problem with that? I recently cut my hair short. It doesn't make me less of a woman.
It feels like trans activism is mixing up their own definitions of gender identity, gender expression and biological sex and stereotypes, and then shouting 'no debate, bigot' at anyone who says 'hey, that's a bit sexist. We need to talk about this'.