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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Q&A thread for New Posters

613 replies

CharlieParley · 14/02/2021 10:41

Welcome to the FWR board and welcome to the debate. If you're new here and have been told your questions might be better on their own thread, but you're not comfortable starting your own, then please feel free to ask your question here.

I'll try my best to answer and some of our other regulars might pop in too.

OP posts:
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9
CranberriesChoccyAgain · 15/02/2021 11:56

@Anovaneway

Do you think they've found out about the pillow fights we regularly host in our best lingerie?

Perhaps you could keep the snide comments to the Bunbury thread?

Perhaps I could. But I probably won't. That's just how I am.
MaudTheInvincible · 15/02/2021 11:56

@Anovaneway

Do you think they've found out about the pillow fights we regularly host in our best lingerie?

Perhaps you could keep the snide comments to the Bunbury thread?

Don't you dare use humour, women!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/02/2021 11:56

What is the word we are supposed to use for the biological classes women and men now?

We're not. They aren't a meaningful category according to many trans activists.

CranberriesChoccyAgain · 15/02/2021 12:00

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Has there been any trouble? If so, what did the authorities do? How were women protected and/or compensated if there was trauma?

There has been trouble, yes. Karen White, a male later convicted of rape, sexually assaulted two women in women's prison. There is currently an unnamed female prisoner bringing a Judicial Review against MoJ for their policy of putting some males in women's prisons. That court case was adjourned due to further evidence being required. It is due to continue this spring.

I know the question was about UK prisons but I found this story about an assault by a TW in a Canadian prison.

www.womenarehuman.com/transgender-inmate-charged-with-sexual-assault-at-a-womens-prison/

ArabellaScott · 15/02/2021 12:01

Yes, indeed, Mildly. Some might even think that confusion and obfuscation are seen as a plus of the mix-up between sex and gender. A feature, not a bug, as the saying goes.

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 12:02

I get shown pictures of butch looking transmen posing with tops off by people saying do you really want to force these people to use the ladies changing and toilets? Surely that will alarm women. Then they say that butch looking women get abused by women in ladies facilities a lot now because GC feminists have created a hostile environment for trans people and so women challenge women who they think might be men.

Personally I don't see why a personal who 100% passed as the opposite sex wouldn't keep using opposite sex facilities because nobody would know. Anyone transman who doesn't pass as the opposite could still use the ladies just fine because we'd notice it's a female presenting as a man.

It feels like a non-issue to me. Am I missing something?

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 12:04

Garbled language there. I hope it still makes sense.

Datun · 15/02/2021 12:05

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

Which brings me onto another question. If sex and gender are different and trans is about gender then why use the same words as used for sex? It just makes things confusing.

What's wrong with using the words transwoman and transman while keeping woman and man for the biological class?

What is the word we are supposed to use for the biological classes women and men now? I thought it might be female and male but I have seen transwomen describe themselves as female recently.

You're supposed to use the prefix cis. As in cis woman.

It makes you a subset of your own sex, but as long as you can be described in relation to what a man does, then it's all fine. A cis woman is 'not a transwoman'. A transwoman is a man who identifies as a woman. Therefore a cis woman is 'not a man who identifies as a woman'.

The other explanation for cis is that you align with your gender. And since gender is a set of restrictive and oppressive sterility types, it means you align with those.

So you're either being described in relation to a man, or being described in relation to colluding in your own oppression.

It's a win, win. But not for women, obvs.

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 15/02/2021 12:09

Mildly, this isn’t be speciality, so hopefully someone else will come along.

I believe it is as follows. Our understanding of the complexities of the human anatomy is growing. As is our understanding of brain patterns and microbiology.

In terms of microbiology, there are differences between male and females values. People argue that it is the same for certain psychological traits. Notably, as everyone is unique, there will be a range for males and a range for females. I believe that some people are very keen to argue that some categories of males are approaching the female range in some areas.

However, that does not change the fact that a male who has gone through male puberty is irrevocably male, down to every single cell (possibly with the exception of sperm cells). It does not change the fact that archaeologist can differentiate between a male and a female skeleton.

It also does not change the fact that women need certain protections based on their biology as the only sex which gets pregnant and suffer from maternity related complications (need of adjusted work hours during pregnancy, protection against getting fired etc).

When it comes to the single sex spaces this does not have an impact either. A Muslim woman will not be able to remove her hijab if she is in a space where there are trans women. As for the pure safety aspect, many trans woman are lovely and need protection themselves. However, it is impossible to determine which trans women are lovely and which are predators. There is a conflict. This conflict needs to be discussed. And the easiest way to protect vulnerable women and children is to exclude all males.

I think many women here would be much more emphatic and keen to discuss solutions if SelfID wasn’t pushed so hard as was the concept that questioning anyone’s gender identity was actual violence. SelfID and no debate means that all males are allowed in every, disregarding legal protections, minorities and safety.

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 12:14

Sports. I am told that if a male reduces his testosterone by taking medication then he is weaker than women. Apparently the Olympic committee have done loads of research and decided it is both fair and appropriate for a testosterone depleted male to compete in women's sports. Obviously they are experts in sporting performance, anti-doping, and Paralymic categories (remember the debates over Pistorius racing on blades against able bodied competitors?).

Is that all really correct?

Seems a bit unlikely to me. My uncle had treatment for prostate cancer that seriously messed with his male hormones and he was still much bigger and stronger than me afterwards. He didn't become a petite delicate flower. Mind you neither of us are Olympians! And people on Twitter might have wrongly represented what the sporting authorities actually said.

Can anyone clarify what the actual situation is?

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 12:17

You're supposed to use the prefix cis. As in cis woman.

But surely a transman is not a cis woman but is biologically a woman? So that terminology doesn't cover the group formerly known as women or females. I am trying to work out what the new word is.

CranberriesChoccyAgain · 15/02/2021 12:17

The range they must fall under is still 3 times more testosterone than a biological female athlete has. So I doubt it too.

334bu · 15/02/2021 12:17

I get shown pictures of butch looking transmen posing with tops off by people saying do you really want to force these people to use the ladies changing and toilets?

Heavily photoshopped and no indication of height. Even our favourite ACLU lawyer indulges in taking such photos.

Q&A thread for New Posters
MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 12:22

Sports again. Twitter tells me that we know transwomen are not going to dominate women's sport because transwomen have been allowed to take part in women's competitions for years and none have ever won an Olympic medal in a women's category. Is that true?

If so, why is there any fuss about letting transwomen compete against women? Surely it would be like letting a kid join the adults race, they'd not cause any real bother to the elites but it keeps them happy and engaged in sport. Right?

OldCrone · 15/02/2021 12:30

Re sports, the most comprehensive bit of research seems to be that carried out by World Rugby last year. They concluded that male bodied people shouldn't play in women's teams.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3972640-rugby-reject-koolaid-listen-to-science

www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jul/19/transwomen-face-potential-womens-rugby-ban-over-safety-concerns?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

If so, why is there any fuss about letting transwomen compete against women? Surely it would be like letting a kid join the adults race, they'd not cause any real bother to the elites but it keeps them happy and engaged in sport.

You've got this the wrong way round. It would be more like allowing adults into children's or youth teams.

Why can't 'transwomen' compete in teams with other male bodied people? If they have deliberately weakened their bodies they may be less competitive, but that was their choice, and they can still be engaged in sport without potentially harming women or taking their places on teams or winning their medals.

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 12:33

What sporting category does a transman compete in? Does taking male hormones bring him up to male levels of strength and power eventually after a few years? Are we seeing any transmen compete successfully against natal men yet? I am a bit worried about doping rules? How do sporting authorities get around those rules for transmen?

For transwomen I get that they take performance reducers not enhancers so I can see how that can be excluded from anti-doping.

For transmen though their hormones should definitely be performance enhancing so how are the anti-doping rules set to stop them smashing the men in competition? Have there been any test cases yet? Any transmen storming ahead of the natal men?

I suppose boxing or MMA would be the the most likely seeing as they have weight categories so the transman's shorter height (assuming the hormones don't change height) shouldn't be a problem. I haven't heard of any though. Maybe it is a secret they are trans?

gardenbird48 · 15/02/2021 12:38

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

Sports again. Twitter tells me that we know transwomen are not going to dominate women's sport because transwomen have been allowed to take part in women's competitions for years and none have ever won an Olympic medal in a women's category. Is that true?

If so, why is there any fuss about letting transwomen compete against women? Surely it would be like letting a kid join the adults race, they'd not cause any real bother to the elites but it keeps them happy and engaged in sport. Right?

The IOC changed the rules to only require some modest testosterone suppression for male born trans competitors in 2015 and the only Olympics since then were in 2016 so I imagine that there was not enough time for entries/training etc for athletes to compete under the new rules.

Prior to that the requirement was full 'reassignment surgery' which, when combined with hormone treatment etc may not make a particularly healthy body for competing at Olympic level. I am not aware how many trans athletes competed under those rules.

The issue is that the new testosterone suppression rules of 10nm/l a)are still way higher than the normal female level of between 1-3nm/l and do absolutely nothing to counteract the advantages given by having a male body with fast twitch musle fibres, longer, denser bones etc.

And if you allow one group of male people to enter a certain category you are actually at risk of sex discrimination against other males. Why should one group of male people be treated any differently to any other group of male people?

Should we allow short men or skinny men to compete in the female category as well?

Please read the many examples given upthread of why this is not acceptable.

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 12:43

Is it wrong to use a trans person's old name when talking about a time when they used the old name?

Like Ellen Page did that but now Elliot Page did this. Except all the stuff done as Ellen has been relabelled online as Elliot.

Why is it different to other renamings like Cassius Clay vs Muhammad Ali or Amal Clooney vs Amal Alamuddin or Elton John vs Reginald Dwight?

It seems to be treated as more offensive to use the pre-change name when the person is trans. Am I imagining that? Is it different?

Am I wrong to see it as the same as, say, calling a woman I know by her maiden name mistakenly when she has changed to use her married name? We don't go and change every historical reference to ourselves when we change name for any other reason do we?

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 12:46

Is it true that a married person can stop their partner from being legally trans? The spousal veto? Why on earth would that be OK? Why would there even be such a law in the first place? Why would feminists object to removing that law? Doesn't that just show up that you don't want people to be allowed to be trans?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/02/2021 12:46

I am trying to work out what the new word is.

As I said, many trans activists don't think there should be one as it isn't a meaningful category, because there are "exceptions".

They want "people" to be grouped by biological functions for health reasons: menstruators, menopausal people, uterus havers, birthing bodies, people with a cervix. They want to completely detach the words "woman" and "female" from female bodies, as then it's easier to push the trans political agenda that males can be women and there isn't any need for sex based rights, because sex isn't definable.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/02/2021 12:48

Is it true that a married person can stop their partner from being legally trans? The spousal veto? Why on earth would that be OK? Why would there even be such a law in the first place? Why would feminists object to removing that law? Doesn't that just show up that you don't want people to be allowed to be trans?

No. Straw man. Loaded question.

Datun · 15/02/2021 12:55

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

I am confused about what is believed about sex and gender.

I see people saying gender is a social construct whereas sex is biology.

The words woman and man used to refer to sex but now they mean gender so a female can be a man if she identifies as a transman.

I don't like redefining commonly understood words (e.g. literally) so that sits wrong with me but if it is something everyone agrees with then I suppose I would have to get used to it.

However, I am not sure everyone who describes themselves as a trans ally does have the same idea. This confuses me. For example, people talking about intersex people aka people with disorders of sexual development tell me that sex is complicated, there is no binary male and female apparently. That is out dated biological understanding. The science says a sex binary does not actually exist. This means trans people can be the opposite sex. That doesn't seem right does it? Eggs and sperm are still real aren't they? There isn't some other sex is there? Aren't intersex people one sex or the other but with something that has gone wrong in development? Anyway of sex and gender are different then what have congenital medical conditions of sex organs got to do with trans people? I thought they were concerned with gender? If transpeople all have intersex conditions won't that make it super easy to identify who is really trans? I don't think trans people have DSDs though, do they?

So, I really don't get what DSDs and trans have to do with each other.

I find it hard to believe scientists have said male and female biological sex classes are old hat. I grew up on a farm, the different between a ewe and a ram was obvious and there was no spectrum of sexes!

Can anyone explain why I keep seeing biological sex is not binary in debates about trans issues?

DSDs and trans don't have anything to do with each other.

Intersex gets introduced in order to prove that sex is not a binary (even tho it is) Obviously it's still not a logical conclusion to think that you can swap from one binary to the other.

But the ideology is not characterised by its logic.

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 13:00

I hope newcomers are finding this useful. I am trying to find all the arguments I see on Twitter and elsewhere. Lots of them got me thinking when I first started taking notice. Lots of "surely that can't be right?" and "Surely I am missing something?"

I'll have another Twitter trawl later to try and remember more of the questions I had at the start. For now, back to my manly job I do despite being a woman, in men's clothing too (literally DH old hoodie).