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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Q&A thread for New Posters

613 replies

CharlieParley · 14/02/2021 10:41

Welcome to the FWR board and welcome to the debate. If you're new here and have been told your questions might be better on their own thread, but you're not comfortable starting your own, then please feel free to ask your question here.

I'll try my best to answer and some of our other regulars might pop in too.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
malloo · 15/02/2021 09:41

CranberriesChoccyAgain
Title of the video is "Gender Identity: Can a 5'9, White Guy Be a 6'5, Chinese Woman?"

That video is great, thank you. Going to show it to my kids.

Anovaneway · 15/02/2021 09:41

The fact that people come and post such, frankly cruel, shit. And think they're making a great point. I mean Jesus it's outragous.

I didn’t blame anyone for anything. Except the criminals. The fact that some men are criminals doesn’t mean I think it’s ok to stop post operative trans women from using women’s toilets.

But go ahead and report my post and your little mole will no doubt have a look behind the scenes and let you know outside mumsnet whether I have other name changes. I can see how this works. Interesting.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/02/2021 10:04

And I'm not really interested in discussing it further tbh.

It's not up to you. If women wish to discuss it, it will be discussed with or without your input.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/02/2021 10:06

But go ahead and report my post and your little mole will no doubt have a look behind the scenes and let you know outside mumsnet whether I have other name changes.

What on Earth are you talking about?

CranberriesChoccyAgain · 15/02/2021 10:26

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 15/02/2021 10:30

That video - I find myself distracted by the absolutely stunning blossom trees in the background - it's worth watching for these alone.

Anovaneway · 15/02/2021 10:30

So yes. Tell us more about how risk and fear which is WARRANTED is silly because I mean. Who can say who is a rapist anyway? Fucking male exclusionary women and girls.

Yes there are times when we legitimately exclude males of course. I didn’t intend to upset you, sorry.

SophocIestheFox · 15/02/2021 10:32

A mole in MNHQ?

Uh huh. Interesting take. Doubtful.

Serial name changers and PBPs are often quite easy to spot, it’s like vegans, they’ll always let you know somehow 😉

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/02/2021 10:35

Yes there are times when we legitimately exclude males of course.

What exactly do you think is going on here? That's all we want, to legitimately exclude males when female people are vulnerable or require the privacy and dignity of a female only space.

Datun · 15/02/2021 10:37

@NiceGerbil

I'm so angered by that comment.

'A person has a one night stand (male or female). How do they ever tell who is a murderer or rapist and who isn’t?

Some people are just bad. It doesn’t mean we stop everyone from living their life.'

Everyone being who? Men.

Your plan of non discrimination means that girls and women should not think twice before going home with a group of men they don't know. Because some people are bad and you can't tell and it shouldn't stop you from living your life.

Women all over the world. Now. Historically. For as far as we can remember. Have had their lives limited by society, by convention, by law. By what they have consumed which is, we are PREY and never forget it.

Fucking hell.

From victim blaming in the 'West' (what did you expect?) to being covered from head to toe lest we inflame men's sexual desires. To being rejected by family etc due to having been abducted and raped. Killed for having sex with the wrong person/ outside of marriage etc etc.

News story on the BBC the other day about a talented out lesbian footballer in South Africa. She was brutally raped and murdered.

So yes. Tell us more about how risk and fear which is WARRANTED is silly because I mean. Who can say who is a rapist anyway? Fucking male exclusionary women and girls.

John warboys was a rapist. The police let him go for years because they didn't believe the women.

The grooming gangs in Rotherham etc were rapists. They were left to get on with it for years because the victims were viewed as off the rails. Child prostitutes.

Come on. Tell me more about how women and girls should accept you can't tell who is a rapist or a murderer and not let it stop them from 'living their lives'.

The fact that people come and post such, frankly cruel, shit. And think they're making a great point. I mean Jesus it's outragous.

It's the fact, too, that they simply can't see the entitlement. There isn't the slightest acknowledgement or even awareness that the people who should be inconvenienced due to their behaviour is men.

It's all why should they? Why should any, single man suffer even the slightest inconvenience, when to stop that we can place any number of women at risk instead.

It's not even a conscious thought, it's instinctive. Women are the service humans, why wouldn't you treat them like that? Dur.

NotBadConsidering · 15/02/2021 10:49

Types of males who want to access female spaces:

Non-dangerous pre-op transwomen.
Non-dangerous post-op transwomen.
Dangerous pre-op transwomen.
Dangerous post-op transwomen.
Dangerous males who call themselves trans and are under the Stonewall trans umbrella but aren’t actually trans according to some (“acceptance without exception, except when it demonstrates a risk we don’t want to draw attention to”).
Non-dangerous males who call themselves trans on some days of the week but not others (days of week variable, only clear to them).
Dangerous males who currently try and spy on women/girls, hide cameras, hide in crawl spaces, peep under/over doors etc.

All of these males, regardless of dangerous or non-dangerous, don’t care about women and girls having privacy from the presence of males.

So how do we distinguish between the groups, and why do any of these groups deserve “legitimate” access to women’s spaces?

gardenbird48 · 15/02/2021 10:53

@NotBadConsidering

Types of males who want to access female spaces:

Non-dangerous pre-op transwomen.
Non-dangerous post-op transwomen.
Dangerous pre-op transwomen.
Dangerous post-op transwomen.
Dangerous males who call themselves trans and are under the Stonewall trans umbrella but aren’t actually trans according to some (“acceptance without exception, except when it demonstrates a risk we don’t want to draw attention to”).
Non-dangerous males who call themselves trans on some days of the week but not others (days of week variable, only clear to them).
Dangerous males who currently try and spy on women/girls, hide cameras, hide in crawl spaces, peep under/over doors etc.

All of these males, regardless of dangerous or non-dangerous, don’t care about women and girls having privacy from the presence of males.

So how do we distinguish between the groups, and why do any of these groups deserve “legitimate” access to women’s spaces?

Can we make them wear a badge?
CranberriesChoccyAgain · 15/02/2021 10:56

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Yes there are times when we legitimately exclude males of course.

What exactly do you think is going on here? That's all we want, to legitimately exclude males when female people are vulnerable or require the privacy and dignity of a female only space.

Do you think they've found out about the pillow fights we regularly host in our best lingerie?
Anovaneway · 15/02/2021 11:12

Serial name changers and PBPs are often quite easy to spot, it’s like vegans, they’ll always let you know somehow

Yes on this particular forum. When it’s 1 voice in 100. That’s not what I’m talking about.

Datun · 15/02/2021 11:19

@Anovaneway

The fact that people come and post such, frankly cruel, shit. And think they're making a great point. I mean Jesus it's outragous.

I didn’t blame anyone for anything. Except the criminals. The fact that some men are criminals doesn’t mean I think it’s ok to stop post operative trans women from using women’s toilets.

But go ahead and report my post and your little mole will no doubt have a look behind the scenes and let you know outside mumsnet whether I have other name changes. I can see how this works. Interesting.

Can I ask if there is any part of you that is thinking about the women? Even slightly? Are you taking the women into account at all?

Do you think women who do not want to share a space with men, are triggered on the basis of whether or not that person has something they can't see under their clothing?

Or do you think they are triggered by their sex?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/02/2021 11:23

Do you think they've found out about the pillow fights we regularly host in our best lingerie?

Oh definitely.

CharlieParley · 15/02/2021 11:24

@Anovaneway

The fact that people come and post such, frankly cruel, shit. And think they're making a great point. I mean Jesus it's outragous.

I didn’t blame anyone for anything. Except the criminals. The fact that some men are criminals doesn’t mean I think it’s ok to stop post operative trans women from using women’s toilets.

But go ahead and report my post and your little mole will no doubt have a look behind the scenes and let you know outside mumsnet whether I have other name changes. I can see how this works. Interesting.

That's how safeguarding works. At all levels in all areas. We identify a risk coming from individuals to a whole group. We identify ways to mitigate the risk.

But of course, when it's about female-only provisions, risk avoidance isn't the only reason for their existence. Privacy and dignity, fairness, equity, remedy for inequalities suffered on the basis of sex. These are all reasons why these provisions exist and while it is fair and justified and right to keep them.

We're not living in a gender-free utopia, we're female people living in a male-dominated world. Those provisions are vital for us, because we are the oppressed class in this world.

OP posts:
MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 11:28

I am told that transwomen are being held in women's prisons in the UK. Were the women in the prison consulted before a male-bodied person was brought in? Is there somewhere where we can see the results of any surveys pre and post arrival of the transwoman in the women's prison? How is it going? Has there been any trouble? If so, what did the authorities do? How were women protected and/or compensated if there was trauma?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/02/2021 11:32

Has there been any trouble? If so, what did the authorities do? How were women protected and/or compensated if there was trauma?

There has been trouble, yes. Karen White, a male later convicted of rape, sexually assaulted two women in women's prison. There is currently an unnamed female prisoner bringing a Judicial Review against MoJ for their policy of putting some males in women's prisons. That court case was adjourned due to further evidence being required. It is due to continue this spring.

Anovaneway · 15/02/2021 11:36

Do you think they've found out about the pillow fights we regularly host in our best lingerie?

Perhaps you could keep the snide comments to the Bunbury thread?

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 11:48

I am confused about what is believed about sex and gender.

I see people saying gender is a social construct whereas sex is biology.

The words woman and man used to refer to sex but now they mean gender so a female can be a man if she identifies as a transman.

I don't like redefining commonly understood words (e.g. literally) so that sits wrong with me but if it is something everyone agrees with then I suppose I would have to get used to it.

However, I am not sure everyone who describes themselves as a trans ally does have the same idea. This confuses me. For example, people talking about intersex people aka people with disorders of sexual development tell me that sex is complicated, there is no binary male and female apparently. That is out dated biological understanding. The science says a sex binary does not actually exist. This means trans people can be the opposite sex. That doesn't seem right does it? Eggs and sperm are still real aren't they? There isn't some other sex is there? Aren't intersex people one sex or the other but with something that has gone wrong in development? Anyway of sex and gender are different then what have congenital medical conditions of sex organs got to do with trans people? I thought they were concerned with gender? If transpeople all have intersex conditions won't that make it super easy to identify who is really trans? I don't think trans people have DSDs though, do they?

So, I really don't get what DSDs and trans have to do with each other.

I find it hard to believe scientists have said male and female biological sex classes are old hat. I grew up on a farm, the different between a ewe and a ram was obvious and there was no spectrum of sexes!

Can anyone explain why I keep seeing biological sex is not binary in debates about trans issues?

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 15/02/2021 11:52

I am really upset now. You have been holding secret, lingerie pillow fights and I have never once been invited 😭 ? not that any sane person would want to see me in lingerie, but that is beside the point

MildlyIrritatedOfChorley · 15/02/2021 11:54

Which brings me onto another question. If sex and gender are different and trans is about gender then why use the same words as used for sex? It just makes things confusing.

What's wrong with using the words transwoman and transman while keeping woman and man for the biological class?

What is the word we are supposed to use for the biological classes women and men now? I thought it might be female and male but I have seen transwomen describe themselves as female recently.

MaudTheInvincible · 15/02/2021 11:55

Saw this on FB yesterday

Public toilet, London, circa 1900.

February 11 is an important, if not very well known day in the history of women’s emancipation. For it was on this date in 1852 that the first public flushing toilet available to women was opened in Britain in 1852. The location was 51 Bedford Street, the Strand, London.

A year earlier, at the Great Exhibition at Crystal Palace in London, the public flush toilet was first introduced. George Jennings, a Brighton plumber, installed water closets in the Retiring Rooms of The Crystal Palace. These caused great excitement and during the exhibition over 800,000 visitors paid one penny each to use them, thus introducing the phrase “to spend a penny”. For their penny, each visitor had access to a clean seat, a towel, a comb and even a shoe shine.

After the success of the lavatories at Crystal Palace, public toilets started to appear in the streets of London. The first one, for men, located at 95 Fleet Street, London, opened on February 2, 1852, with one for women opening a few days later, on February 11, at 51 Bedford Street, Strand, London. These “Public Waiting Rooms” contained water closets in wooden surrounds.

It took some years for the toilets to become universally popular. Thomas Crapper developed improvements to Jennings’ initial flushing mechanism, making it more functional and reliable. He also invented the ballcock mechanism.

Because the majority of public toilets in Britain and the United States were built for men, the Ladies Sanitary Association, formed in the 1850s, shortly after the creation of the first public flushing toilet, campaigned for clean and sanitary public and workplace toilets and changing rooms for women.

Until public lavatories for women were widespread, women who needed to travel from their homes had to plan their route to include places where they could relieve themselves. Women were unable to travel beyond where family and friends resided. This is often referred to as the “urinary leash”, as women could only travel far as their bladders would allow them.

We, of course, take women’s rest rooms for granted (except when we can't find one), but their development and implementation was an essential step in women’s equality and freedom.

Historical Photos of Women's Stories

https://www.facebook.com/111517533725893/posts/283743139836664/

It seems some people want to reinstate the urinary leash and stop women being able to access public facilities by making them mixed sex, so stopping any woman who can't use them due to religious or cultural reasons, due to trauma, or simply due to not wanting to have to share with men.

These women must have their lives and their ability to participate in society curtailed so that men can have all the choice.

No. I do not consent.

Q&A thread for New Posters
Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/02/2021 11:55

Can anyone explain why I keep seeing biological sex is not binary in debates about trans issues?

Because it's a useful gotcha argument for trans activists. There's no such thing as biological sex because some medical disorders exist which disprove the sex binary, therefore men can have a "woman's brain".