Allison Bailey to sue Stonewall -thread 2

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Previous thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3950877-Allison-Bailey-to-sue-Stonewall

Allison's website allisonbailey.co.uk

Statement

First and foremost, I hope that my legal action will bring me justice. I also hope that it can stop Stonewall from policing free speech via its Diversity Champions scheme.

Stonewall have signed up many companies, public bodies, voluntary sector organisations and government departments to their manifesto and their value system regarding trans rights. What is called Stonewall Law. Without most of the public realising it, a large swathe of British employers have signed up to the Stonewall value system. It has done this by trying to silence and vilify women like me who have genuine concerns about how its approach to trans inclusivity conflicts with the protections, safety and dignity of women, girls, children and LGB people.

We cannot achieve a just outcome for everyone while Stonewall are free to threaten women like me with the loss of our livelihoods and reputations. Stonewall must be held to account. I intend to do just that.

What I don't understand about the hatred towards the newly-formed LGB Alliance is that many charities are formed, often for the same ends. Some people feel that Stonewall does not serve their needs, so they have set up another organisation.

Nowt wrong with that.

Brilliant news about Lesbian and Gay News, thank you for sharing 😊

@QueenoftheAir

What I don't understand about the hatred towards the newly-formed LGB Alliance is that many charities are formed, often for the same ends. Some people feel that Stonewall does not serve their needs, so they have set up another organisation.

Nowt wrong with that.

Exactly - I wouldn't insist that a Prostate Cancer charity included Breast Cancer outreach in their remit.

I mean, I actually do understand the hatred - from TRAs - but it's unreasonable. Not everything has to be about the tranz.

@QueenoftheAir

“What I don't understand about the hatred towards the newly-formed LGB Alliance is that many charities are formed, often for the same ends. Some people feel that Stonewall does not serve their needs, so they have set up another organisation.

Nowt wrong with that.”

Personally my objection to the LGB Alliance is that they appear to be primarily focused on opposing trans rights, which I don’t think is a helpful or constructive focus, and also that they’ve expressed views more generally in relation to LGBT matters that I strongly disagree with - such as that schools should have LGBT groups because it might provide an opportunity for ‘predatory’ teachers to take advantage of children.

What rights of trans people have you seen them oppose, please?

Donated to Allison. I'll do it again next month. This shit needs sorting.

The LGB Alliance believes that T doesn't naturally belong with LGB as it's about identity and that there should be a separate movement, which is why they have set one up. They feel the rights of LGB people were being overlooked in favour of T by Stonewall and organisations looking to them to get their "diversity" box ticked.

Obviously that stance will be conflated with "opposing trans rights" by some who are opposed to the gay, lesbian and bisexual rights movement not centring trans issues.

Donated. Good luck.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

“The LGB Alliance believes that T doesn't naturally belong with LGB as it's about identity and that there should be a separate movement, which is why they have set one up. They feel the rights of LGB people were being overlooked in favour of T by Stonewall and organisations looking to them to get their "diversity" box ticked.

Obviously that stance will be conflated with "opposing trans rights" by some who are opposed to the gay, lesbian and bisexual rights movement not centring trans issues.”

My experience of stonewall is that they fight for all LGBT+ people, the recent focus of trans (and to some extent also bi) rights is a natural response to that being where there is still the most work to do.

In my view gender and sexuality are inextricably linked - society categorises people on the basis of the sex/gender of those they are attracted to, have sex with, or have relationships with, because society sees sex/gender as a crucial category of identity.

@yourhairiswinterfire

“What rights of trans people have you seen them oppose, please?”

Ok, let me rephrase that - they appear to oppose those seeking to support and promote the acceptance of trans people

I’m quite a few pounds poorer than I was. I thought equivalent to two takeaway meals! So I’m cooking more this week but proud of supporting Allison, Bell for the appeal and FPFW with ONS.

I’m due to show my thanks to Ann Sinnott too shortly and James Caspian.

I wish Allison all the best and I hope the underhand strategies Stonewall is using to silence critics views to its umbrella and ‘All without exception’ policy can be uncover for what is it. PURE BULLYING other views into submission.
Go Allison!

My experience of stonewall is that they fight for all LGBT+ people, the recent focus of trans (and to some extent also bi) rights is a natural response to that being where there is still the most work to do.

Yes, and other people have a different experience, and opinion, and feel that LGB people are better served by a separate group.

“Ereshkigalangcleg

Yes, and other people have a different experience, and opinion, and feel that LGB people are better served by a separate group.”

But it’s also reasonable for those of us who consider the LGB Alliance as having a divisive and regressive agenda to criticise them for that.

Critique is great, particularly if it comes with reference to the evidence that underpins that critique. Lots of lovely debate and lively free speech are tremendous.

Bullying, discrimination, victimisation and harassment have no place in a fair and civil society. This is codified in law and also very much enmeshed in this country's 'sense of fair play.

[quote Helen8220]@yourhairiswinterfire

“What rights of trans people have you seen them oppose, please?”

Ok, let me rephrase that - they appear to oppose those seeking to support and promote the acceptance of trans people[/quote]

They are making sure that their voices aren't drowned out by Stonewall's current agenda of promoting trans issues, not only neglecting LGB issues but actively overriding L's rights.

@WarOnWomen

“They are making sure that their voices aren't drowned out by Stonewall's current agenda of promoting trans issues, not only neglecting LGB issues but actively overriding L's rights.”

But what LGB issues are they neglecting? I’ve been involved in completing the Stonewall workplace equality questionnaire for my organisation and it was pretty comprehensive in terms of requiring evidence that we had been actively pursuing LGBT+ equality in all areas.

If anyone has that bar chart of Stonewall’s annual reports for the last 5 years and how trans issues are pushing out discussion of LGB, right now would be a good time to post it. It’s pretty stark.

In my view gender and sexuality are inextricably linked - society categorises people on the basis of the sex/gender of those they are attracted to, have sex with, or have relationships with, because society sees sex/gender as a crucial category of identity.

You've highlighted the problem in this response. You write sex/gender as if they are the same. They are not. One is physical, the other is an identity. I'd disagree most people categorise gay people as those attracted to the same sex or gender. I think the vast majority classify (and thereby discriminate) based on same sex attraction. Not same gender attraction. Same gender attraction can be heterosexual.

And thats the problem people have with Stonewall. They have redefined their sexuality. And why LGBA now exists.

But what LGB issues are they neglecting? I’ve been involved in completing the Stonewall workplace equality questionnaire for my organisation and it was pretty comprehensive in terms of requiring evidence that we had been actively pursuing LGBT+ equality in all areas.

Stonewall redefining Lesbian and Gay people as being 'same gender attracted' is a pretty big thing for those people I think? You do realise that 'same gender attracted' completely contradicts the concept of 'same-sex attracted'?

What measures have Stonewall taken to protect the interests of the vast numbers of lesbians that are being abused for not wanting intimate contact with non-female bodies?

Former Stonewall CEO Ruth Hunt accused a group of lesbians of being transphobic. They had joined a Pride March with signs saying that lesbians don't have penises. It hasn't really progressed from there.

@titchy

“You've highlighted the problem in this response. You write sex/gender as if they are the same. They are not. One is physical, the other is an identity. I'd disagree most people categorise gay people as those attracted to the same sex or gender. I think the vast majority classify (and thereby discriminate) based on same sex attraction. Not same gender attraction. Same gender attraction can be heterosexual.

And thats the problem people have with Stonewall. They have redefined their sexuality. And why LGBA now exists.”

I don’t agree with your understanding of sexuality, but even if I did, my point is that society expects us to define ourselves on the basis of the sex of the people we’re attracted to. The original expectation that people were only attracted to/ had sex with people of the opposite sex was itself a gender norm - part of what it was to be a man was to be a person who desired and had sex with women, not other men. That’s why gender norms and sexuality are inextricably linked

And thats the problem people have with Stonewall. They have redefined their sexuality. And why LGBA now exists.

Yes, exactly. And they are entitled to disagree with this, and Stonewall's endorsement of the gender identity-centred position.

I don’t agree with your understanding of sexuality

"Different people have different views" breaking news exclusive.

I don’t agree with your understanding of sexuality, but even if I did, my point is that society expects us to define ourselves on the basis of the sex of the people we’re attracted to. The original expectation that people were only attracted to/ had sex with people of the opposite sex was itself a gender norm - part of what it was to be a man was to be a person who desired and had sex with women, not other men. That’s why gender norms and sexuality are inextricably linked

So if a woman has a relationship with a transwoman with a penis, are they in a lesbian relationship or a heterosexual relationship?

I remember gay men being referred to as women, because they had sex with/loved men. Stonewall was crucial in advancing the idea that homosexuality didn't change your sex, that men who loved men were men, not women. They had very clear ideas about what same-sex relationships were. Now, they view those as bigoted.