Breastfeeding is now chestfeeding, Brighton’s trans-friendly midwives are told

[Mulletsaremisunderstood]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/breastfeeding-is-now-chestfeeding-brightons-trans-friendly-midwives-are-told-pwlvmcnc7

Hope this link works as I am a subscriber to the times and logged in.

More nonsense being peddled as 'progressive' . When will the madness end!!?

I might be missing something major BUT surely there are going to be a LOT of hungry babies seeing as "chests" don't produce milk and breast's DO

WTAF are people thinking? Poor babies. I don't think men have milk ducts, do they?

Men do occasionally secrete fluid from their nipples. It's usually a sign of something quite seriously wrong, and is one of the presenting symptoms of breast cancer in men.

The day I found out I was pregnant my life changed. 3 miscarriages later I gave birth. 20 years later my kids have been my number one priority in all decisions. Actually am just emerging enough to be able to discuss motherhood on Mumsnet. Accepting of trans people is one thing. Changing our entire understanding of motherhood is another. I don't accept that.

But these are women, biologically speaking. And they need support.
Which is why it is respectful, in this instance, at a moment of extreme cognitive dissonance, as someone had so rightfully said, not point out to them they are crazy and mixed up, but encourage them to be as nurturing of their babies as possible...hence chestfeeding instead of denying that particular expression of nurture. It benefits both parties, mother (transman) and baby in the interim and perhaps makes labels less important long-term for that "parent". Maybe it is healing.

It’s dumb. End of. Anyway.

There's 'chestfeeding' used as a polite euphemism for mothers who identify as trans men, and then there's 'chestfeeding' used to describe what I think is still hypothetical (but others here might correct me) - trans women being given hormones so that they can produce a milk-like substance to feed their child (who their female partner has given birth to), often with unsettling sexual overtones.

@Nettleskeins I agree with what you say in a specific situation. But the policy advice is for the support of the cognitive dissonance to become the "norm". Are you making an argument that motherhood is irrelevant?

“biological essentialism and transphobia present within elements of mainstream birth narratives and discourse”

This is particularly ridiculous. Biological essentialism because basic biology is intrinsic to sex, conception (even if artificial it involves an egg from a woman and a sperm from a man) and birth. If this is transphobic then life itself is transphobic.

The other thing that makes me so angry about this whole load of rubbish is that it has cost NHS money to produce this 'guideline' for such a very tiny percentage of the population whereas we DO know that women of colour are routinely being failed by midwife services, we know that women are denied pain relief, that there is a much higher percentage of infant death etc - I would rather the money was spent on addressing these issues as oppossed to the very few 'men' who give birth.

This is particularly ridiculous. Biological essentialism because basic biology is intrinsic to sex, conception (even if artificial it involves an egg from a woman and a sperm from a man) and birth. If this is transphobic then life itself is transphobic.

Therein lies the problem.

If your whole world view involves denying material reality, like King Canute denying the tides*, then you're bound to struggle psychologically when your world view collides with the facts - and this sort of psychological struggle often expresses itself as outbursts of anger and raging about the transphobia of people pointing out to you that unfortunately the real world is not as you would like it to be.

(*I know King Canute was actually making a point about the limitations of the power of kings to his advisors.)

@thebabessavedme

The other thing that makes me so angry about this whole load of rubbish is that it has cost NHS money to produce this 'guideline' for such a very tiny percentage of the population whereas we DO know that women of colour are routinely being failed by midwife services, we know that women are denied pain relief, that there is a much higher percentage of infant death etc - I would rather the money was spent on addressing these issues as oppossed to the very few 'men' who give birth.

Particularly as the latter group seem to be more than capable of advocating for themselves.

It's just so.... So horrid.

Breast milk does not come out of your lungs.

Chest feeding?
It is nothing of the sort.

@NotyourHandmaid
There's 'chestfeeding' used as a polite euphemism for mothers who identify as trans men, and then there's 'chestfeeding' used to describe what I think is still hypothetical (but others here might correct me) - trans women being given hormones so that they can produce a milk-like substance to feed their child

Is this a real "thing"? Being given hormones to produce a milk like substance to feed the child? What is the world coming to? Who is this even for? It doesn't sound in the best interest of the baby to be fed hormone laced substance.

People are entitled to deny a biological fact and pretend it does not exist. As long as they aren't harming anyone else and their foolishness only affects themselves. If they are in a position of trust, I'd question how trustworthy or balanced they might be. Or intelligent.

However, peddlars of ignorance and lies shouldn't be in a position to force others to pretend their ideology is true. Or given any credence or influence over rules that affect others.

In the dark ages, illnesses were presumed to be possession. How have we ended up in this day and age with people whose beliefs are little better?

@Nettleskeins

But these are women, biologically speaking. And they need support. Which is why it is respectful, in this instance, at a moment of extreme cognitive dissonance, as someone had so rightfully said, not point out to them they are crazy and mixed up, but encourage them to be as nurturing of their babies as possible...hence chestfeeding instead of denying that particular expression of nurture. It benefits both parties, mother (transman) and baby in the interim and perhaps makes labels less important long-term for that "parent". Maybe it is healing.

@Nettleskeins That’s actually a really interesting and insightful take on it. I hope you are right.

I had a baby recently and have been following various midwifery based social media pages. ‘Birthing people’ seems to be the new norm too... Excellent, I am very much looking forward to my male partner doing his fair share of pregnancy and birthing our next baby

Sorry if I offended anyone. I should have expressed my amazement offline. Am googling.

@thebabessavedme

The other thing that makes me so angry about this whole load of rubbish is that it has cost NHS money to produce this 'guideline' for such a very tiny percentage of the population whereas we DO know that women of colour are routinely being failed by midwife services, we know that women are denied pain relief, that there is a much higher percentage of infant death etc - I would rather the money was spent on addressing these issues as oppossed to the very few 'men' who give birth.

Well yes exactly

So will they be changing the profession title 'midwife' to something like 'midperson' as well?

Yes, I would rather that.

As far as I'm aware, no long term research has been done into these drugs and their effects on the parent or baby. Yet breastfeeding has always been the ideal.
If I was FTM trans, I would breastfeed. Or if a transman, I don't know- maybe I'd hope my partner would if they were a bio female.

I do think it's incredibly selfish and in any event odd to identify out of womanhood and then demand all the terms relating to any female biology be changed/added to to include masculine and gender-neutral terms.

Why would transmen want everyone to remember that they can get pregnant and other things? If I were a transman and trying to live my life as a man, I really don't think I'd want to be reminding everyone that I have periods. I do think it's interesting that there's no similar push from transwomen to change language to postage-havers and ejaculators, although there are a number of transwomen on Twitter who seem quite happy to talk about their "lady dicks".

I suppose if one-on-one a transman got pregnant and requested different terms, it would be nice for medical staff to humour them, but I just don't think these terms should form part of official guidance/policies etc. as they are just in all honesty nonsense.

Midwife derivation mid wif = with woman. So a midwife can be male or female.

@DNHandTNS

@NotyourHandmaid There's 'chestfeeding' used as a polite euphemism for mothers who identify as trans men, and then there's 'chestfeeding' used to describe what I think is still hypothetical (but others here might correct me) - trans women being given hormones so that they can produce a milk-like substance to feed their child

Is this a real "thing"? Being given hormones to produce a milk like substance to feed the child? What is the world coming to? Who is this even for? It doesn't sound in the best interest of the baby to be fed hormone laced substance.

This thread from late 2020 covers a lot of it: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4091356-La-Leche-League-will-support-males-of-the-male-sex-who-wish-to-breastfeed

It's not pleasant.

But it's worth being clear about whether we're talking about a natural (and more to the point, safe) process being labelled differently, or a chemically-induced one that seems to disregard all concern for infant safety.

@Aha85

I do think it's incredibly selfish and in any event odd to identify out of womanhood and then demand all the terms relating to any female biology be changed/added to to include masculine and gender-neutral terms.

Why would transmen want everyone to remember that they can get pregnant and other things? If I were a transman and trying to live my life as a man, I really don't think I'd want to be reminding everyone that I have periods. I do think it's interesting that there's no similar push from transwomen to change language to postage-havers and ejaculators, although there are a number of transwomen on Twitter who seem quite happy to talk about their "lady dicks".

I suppose if one-on-one a transman got pregnant and requested different terms, it would be nice for medical staff to humour them, but I just don't think these terms should form part of official guidance/policies etc. as they are just in all honesty nonsense.

This exactly. It’s outrageous and disgusting behaviour. It’s not inclusive, it’s controlling. So women’s spaces have become male spaces everywhere, because of biological females refusing us our words and biological men refusing us our bodies, sexuality and spaces.

I'd think it must be torturous to be a transman, having periods and all that entails- while taking male hormones. I can't imagine how confusing it must be, like a war in the body maybe.

Why can't there be breastfeeding groups for bio women and also separate ones for transmen? It makes sense because both groups have different needs, completely different problems.