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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Breastfeeding is now chestfeeding, Brighton’s trans-friendly midwives are told

607 replies

Mulletsaremisunderstood · 09/02/2021 17:41

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/breastfeeding-is-now-chestfeeding-brightons-trans-friendly-midwives-are-told-pwlvmcnc7

Hope this link works as I am a subscriber to the times and logged in.

More nonsense being peddled as 'progressive' Angry. When will the madness end!!?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/02/2021 11:35

Dunno, is he a trans man? If not that's probably why.

Whyever not? Are you saying there is something different about "trans men"?

Tibtom · 13/02/2021 11:45

If it is 'transinclusive' to call breasts 'chest' then what is the trans inclusive term for the following?
Cervix
Uterus
Ovary
Fallopian tube
Mastitis
Lochia
Post partum haemorrhage
Post natal depression
Gestation
Gestational diabetes
Pre eclampsia
Pelvic girdle pain
HELLP Syndrome
Labour

JustGotHere · 13/02/2021 12:01

Something I’ve been wondering is what effect this will have on a generation of children, who will be denied the mammalian experience of having been mothered, by a mother. I’ve seen a children’s rights argument against surrogacy what about one against this erosion of mothering as a function performed by the female of our species. And that is essential to their future success and survival. Or have I been watching too much Orangutan Jungle School.

andyoldlabour · 13/02/2021 12:05

"Dunno, is he a trans man? If not that's probably why."

The correct answer here, is that he is not female. A transman is female.

andyoldlabour · 13/02/2021 12:08

I wonder if transwomen such as Munro Bergdorf think of "breasts" as being transphobic, given the fact that they are always flaunting their cosmetically enhanced ones?

andyoldlabour · 13/02/2021 12:16

As I suspected, breasts are very much desired by transwomen. So, if you are a transwoman it is not transphobic to talk about breasts, but if you are a woman - human female - it is.

"For many transgender women, MtF breast augmentation is top of the list to get the sense of femininity they are dreaming of. To have the right expectations, it’s important to know about these 5 facts about breasts of transgender versus cisgender women."

2pass.clinic/en/blog?page=5

StanfordPines · 13/02/2021 12:29

The reason why a transman is pregnant doesn’t really matter does it. What matters is that they get the correct care for their needs.

andyoldlabour · 13/02/2021 12:44

StanfordPines

It would seem from posts on here, that a transman can expect a far higher quality of care when pregnant, than a woman.

HermitsLife · 13/02/2021 12:48

Thats true Stanford

40+ years ago my mum was a teenage girl in premature labour alone in a maternity ward and treated like a stupid and irresponsible tart. Her voice not listened to, by the time it was recomended that an emergency C Section was need both our lives were at risk and we both had to spend a good amount of time in hospital to recover.

You'd hope in that time woman or mother centred care would become better but last year my cousin's wife gave birth for the first time. she's a very slight woman and was pushing for over an hour, all the time my husband begging HCPs to help her, and being told this is normal she just needs to calm down and stop being silly, unfortunately by the time they decided a vaginal birth would not be the best option it was too late for them to perform a c section and she and their daughter again spent a lot of time in hospital recovering from this traumatic birth.

Almost every woman I know who has given birth in recent years regardless of their race, class, education or age has had similar experiences of not being listened to, patronised or not being centred in their care. A huge amout of them had emergency C Sections or forceps delivery after going on way too long in labour.

Too many maternity wards can't seem to get basic patient centred care right in the first place,too many mothers (and father) live with psycological trauma following unnecessarily traumatic births, too many children and mothers are living with life long effects of preventable birthing injuries, too many babies are being lost and mother's lives are being put at risk because they are already being infantalised or dehumanised in the place where their need should be put front and centre.

So yes I would love everyone to get the correct care they deserve, we can start by not diminishing and belittling mothers, stop treating them like a problem that needs to be fixed, and stop with the confusing and dehumanising language towards us

ISaySteadyOn · 13/02/2021 13:13

It seems that mothers are not allowed anything now. Except blame. We will always get that.

OhHolyJesus · 13/02/2021 14:14

Well said Hermits - brilliant post.

jj1968 · 13/02/2021 15:01

@andyoldlabour

I wonder if transwomen such as Munro Bergdorf think of "breasts" as being transphobic, given the fact that they are always flaunting their cosmetically enhanced ones?
Do you spend a lot of time looking at trans women's breasts?
WednesdayalltheWay · 13/02/2021 15:11

@gardenbird48 and @HermitsLife
Perfectly put.

I think midwives are probably intelligent enough to find a way to respectfully discuss things with any trans man they are dealing with, and find language that is suitable and fine for the individual, as they will have to do with many women they are working with, whether that be for cultural reasons, women with learning disabilities, mental illness, abusive partners etc. But this guidance and the trajectory of it all is utterly sinister.

In the Julia Hartley Brewer interview there was a lot of talk of respect, which I'm obviously all for but as @hermits has so brilliantly described, lack of respect is utterly endemic in maternity care and I would love for that to be looked at seriously for all women, and I'm talking about actions not words. Actions that leave people with real, physical injury and trauma.

But when you have people like Chay Brown claiming that saying "someone with a vagina is a woman", is transphobic, the ability we have to discuss this is seriously curtailed.

I used to be more "live and let live" but now I see what is going on I feel like that's not a feasible position to take any more.

ArabellaScott · 13/02/2021 15:46

Great quotes, Daisies.

And Hermits, yes, it's particularly galling that women are disregarded, bullied, ignored and diminished - still! - in misogynistic healthcare settings, still unable to access the standard of care they should expect, just because women are not listened to

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53323780 - vaginal mesh

www.standard.co.uk/futurelondon/health/gender-data-gap-caroline-criado-perez-on-how-healthcare-is-systematically-discriminating-against-women-a4246221.html

www.womensequality.org.uk/equal_health

  • yet the focus is on how - what, how many people does this apply to - 4? 5? - not wanting to hear the word 'breastfeeding' when it accurately describes what they are doing.
ArabellaScott · 13/02/2021 15:47

A cynic might say all this flag waving about inclusivity is a quick, cheap and easy way to avoid tackling the systemic inequality and substandard health care taht women are still battling.

Justhadathought · 13/02/2021 15:57

The whole 'inclusivity' argument is utterly nonsensical. On one hand wanting to be 'included' in a group to which one does not naturally belong - but then forbidding that very group from using the words and language that is natural to it. What is it exactly that one is wanting to be 'included' in?

In practice it would appear this 'inclusivity' is actually more akin cultural imperialism.

Justhadathought · 13/02/2021 15:59

Obviously, a transman does 'naturally' belong to the female sex, and this is why they are able to become pregnant and feed their child. And as such are already included.

Justhadathought · 13/02/2021 16:03

Is inclusivity really just a pick 'n mix ? Included in some ways, but then purposefully excluding oneself in other ways.

HermitsLife · 13/02/2021 16:16

Well said Wednesday

I agree with this too but I am an old cynic anyway.
A cynic might say all this flag waving about inclusivity is a quick, cheap and easy way to avoid tackling the systemic inequality and substandard health care taht women are still battling

And its very telling that some people see talking about these things as "moral panic" and irrational rage.

HermitsLife · 13/02/2021 16:17

@Justhadathought

Is inclusivity really just a pick 'n mix ? Included in some ways, but then purposefully excluding oneself in other ways.
Yes
Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/02/2021 16:25

Dunno, is he a trans man? If not that's probably why.

Whyever not? Are you saying there is something different about "trans men"?

Any answer to my question, jj?

andyoldlabour · 13/02/2021 16:54

jj1968

"Do you spend a lot of time looking at trans women's breasts?"

I don't know any personally, but if you "Google" Munro Bergdorf and then look at the images, you may start to understand what I am talking about.

Floisme · 13/02/2021 17:02

@Justhadathought

Obviously, a transman does 'naturally' belong to the female sex, and this is why they are able to become pregnant and feed their child. And as such are already included.
Yes transmen are already included and this is why I always dig in my heels when wording such as 'women and transmen' is suggested as a compromise. I would accept 'women, including transmen', but the word 'and' suggests that transmen are an additional and thereby separate group.

And yes, I'm a bit of a word nerd but I think we have to make sure the language around this is absolutely tight, otherwise sooner or later someone will turn up in a truck and drive right through it.

jj1968 · 13/02/2021 17:04

@andyoldlabour

jj1968

"Do you spend a lot of time looking at trans women's breasts?"

I don't know any personally, but if you "Google" Munro Bergdorf and then look at the images, you may start to understand what I am talking about.

I guess you do a lot of googling.
DaisiesandButtercups · 13/02/2021 17:20

@ArabellaScott

A cynic might say all this flag waving about inclusivity is a quick, cheap and easy way to avoid tackling the systemic inequality and substandard health care taht women are still battling.
Exactly and a gold standard of maternity care is established for the 4-5 but the rest? Nothing is done to address the underfunding and structures which place mothers secondary to the needs of the institution. Many midwives continue to strive to give woman-centred, individualised care but they need to be empowered to do this, and staffing levels need to make it possible for each and every woman to have that care.

Midwifery actually should be placed in the community for the majority with home visits the norm for all midwifery post natal care and some antenatal care and ready access to home birth and local midwife led units for those who want them. No one should have to get herself and her baby and any other children to post natal appointments in a hospital.

And how about supporting women for the full 28 days which is the midwife’s remit to ease the transition to motherhood or increase in family size and give those who choose breastfeeding more of the support they need?

Mothers and babies are important, this is where we all start from.