Breastfeeding is now chestfeeding, Brighton’s trans-friendly midwives are told

[Mulletsaremisunderstood]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/breastfeeding-is-now-chestfeeding-brightons-trans-friendly-midwives-are-told-pwlvmcnc7

Hope this link works as I am a subscriber to the times and logged in.

More nonsense being peddled as 'progressive' . When will the madness end!!?

No potential need for women's services = no need to have views about women's services

@Justhadathought

I'm sorry but whether healthcare providers use trans inclusive language when treating trans patients is very much my business. Much more so, I would argue, as a trans person than yours

What do you mean by 'inclusive' language? What could a midwife say in the context of her role that would not include you?

What is 'exclusive' about using biologically correct terminology? Why would you want to pretend that breastmilk, for example, does not come from breast tissue?

Can you explain?

Language which makes trans men feel uncomfortable is unnecessary and may lead to people not accessing healthcare when they need it. Maternity services do not specifically do not affect me, but whether trans inclusive language is used across healthcare provision does. If policies which support using sensitive language around pregnant trans men were scrapped then that would likely impact on other areas as well.

Anyone claiming they are a “trans man” who becomes pregnant is most obviously neither “trans” nor a “man”, regardless of how they wish to appear. We are all free to dress as we please, but denying biological reality rather suggests therapy rather than affirmation is required. Nor is it acceptable to expect the rest of us to change standard language in order to accommodate what are in effect lies.

If you are a trans man and living your true life as a man why would you be pregnant? Really not trying to be goady or anything but I really don't understand. Surely pregnancy is one of the most female things possible.

@Kettledodger

If you are a trans man and living your true life as a man why would you be pregnant? Really not trying to be goady or anything but I really don't understand. Surely pregnancy is one of the most female things possible.

Presumably because you really want kids and are prepared to tolerate the discomfort caused by gender dysphoria to achieve that. I don't think that means it shouldn't be handled sensitively though and that HCPs shouldn't work with the patient to minimise that discomfort.

@jj1968 nope still don't get it. Surely a lot of men "really" want children but only women can be pregnant. So I ask again if you are a trans man living your life in every way as a man then by being pregnant is hypocritical IMO

[quote Kettledodger]@jj1968 nope still don't get it. Surely a lot of men "really" want children but only women can be pregnant. So I ask again if you are a trans man living your life in every way as a man then by being pregnant is hypocritical IMO [/quote]
If a medical procedure was developed that allowed men to have kids I'm sure some would if they were in same sex couples or their partner was unable to. Wouldn't mean they weren't men.

No-one is perfectly free from hypocrisy if that's what you think it is. If someone genuinely experiences gender dysphoria and seeks to transition, but also really wants kids, why shouldn't they? What business is it of yours? Do you have people scrutinising your life decisions for any trace of hypocrisy? It's just someone living their life and trying to be happy on the terms that suits them.

So I ask again if you are a trans man living your life in every way as a man then by being pregnant is hypocritical IMO

Reminds me of what some people said when gay men and lesbians first began starting families.

@jj1968 do you think so really? I will let my brother and bil know that apparently I can't possibly think that my nephew is legitimate. 🙄 Just because I don't understand why a person who has gender dysphoria would want to be pregnant. Questioning something doesn't make it phobic.

@Kettledodger

If you are a trans man and living your true life as a man why would you be pregnant? Really not trying to be goady or anything but I really don't understand. Surely pregnancy is one of the most female things possible.

Because if we change the language “men can get pregnant now.”

They are expanding the trouserwidth of masculinity.

So along with the Staniland question we have more questions. “Do you believe MEN give birth to babies?”

@jj1968 why can’t my husband get pregnant?

[quote Wandawomble]@jj1968 why can’t my husband get pregnant?[/quote]
Dunno, is he a trans man? If not that's probably why.

Presumably because you really want kids and are prepared to tolerate the discomfort caused by gender dysphoria to achieve that. I don't think that means it shouldn't be handled sensitively though and that HCPs shouldn't work with the patient to minimise that discomfort

A couple of substituted words or terms would be effectively meaningless when faced with the larger context of the overwhelming bodily/emotional/psychological state of pregnancy and childbirth.
and with a baby whose first sounds are likely to include the sound of 'Mama' ( the world over, whatever language)

It's just someone living their life and trying to be happy on the terms that suits them

Which is fine, but not when it comes at the expense of biological fact, nor at the expense of wholesale language change for everyone else; with the implications that brings regarding society's perception of women and typically female experiences; and the knock-on effects in the spaces and services that have been set aside for women and girls.

It is not possible to pretend that the advice given to Brighton midwives exists in some kind of splendid isolation; as a unique one-off case, rather than as part of a wider movement to impose a whole world view, which is, in turn, shaped around the accommodation of people suffering from psychological distress for whom mere words ( & accurate ones at that) are triggers.

@ColourMagic

This link to BSUH NHS Trust Maternity/'Perinatal' Specialist Gender Services was posted on a previous page in this thread.

It is worth reading through the additional services offered in order to be gender inclusive, it's definitely not all about language. Read and compare with the other specialised services on the BSUH maternity pages. It is clear that the gender specialised services are more extensive, more personalised, and a lot more expensive than the services offered to pregnant women, and more extensive than the other specialised maternity services listed on the site (for teenage mothers, mothers with mental health requirements for example).

The Specialist Gender Services include Specialist medical professionals, Gender Inclusive Midwives, Gender Inclusive Consultant Obstetrician, GI Consultant Neonatologist, GI Consultant Endocrinologist, GI Speciality Doctor in Sexual & Reproductive Health, and GI Specialist Infant Feeding Midwife.

.
Additional Gender Inclusive Support available includes:

'As Gender Inclusion Midwives we can provide extra support to you during and following your pregnancy, alongside your regular community midwife appointments. This can include:

Talking about where you would feel most comfortable having your midwife appointments (e.g. at home instead of at a Children’s Centre)

Pronoun stickers for your notes (these are optional, they will only be used if you wish to communicate your pronouns to all healthcare professionals you may meet)

Company and support at other appointments, such as scans

Personalised birth, feeding and parenting preparation (antenatal classes) at home .....

Tour of the hospital facilities where you may choose to have your baby .... '

www.bsuh.nhs.uk/maternity/our-services/specialist-support/gender-inclusion/

.

That is quite shocking! Why is one group of females being elevated above all others and given preferential treatment to such a marked extent!

It reminds me of our local hospitals policy that offers tw a free choice of any ward, including a private room if they choose, personal grooming items (like a shaving kit), permanent hair removal etc.

Compare reports of women not being able to access basic items like sanitary products and a basic standard of care, and women with pcos finding it extremely hard to get any hair removal related to their condition on the nhs.

Many of the policies relating to trans people read like an ultimate wish list but those wishes are being granted where the rest of us just get meh.

It's just part of the background noise to them and not something that really impinges on their life. It's important to try and keep a sense of perspective I think.

Lovely. Can we have all those support groups and services that have started to remove the words women and girls and replace them with dehumanized versions just keep this in mind and go back to using ‘women/girls and ‘ please. No more menstruators, ‘people who’, no more chestfeeding. No more, ‘if you DON’T use this language you are not welcome’.

This is great. I am sure if we also note that a person of the class that ejaculates (whether they ever have or do doesn’t matter) told us we can do this, they will take more notice too. I have found that appeal to authority still works wonders.

I came across this from 2001 and I can’t help feeling that we were on the right track then but that we have really lost our way.

“Humanising birth means understanding that the woman giving birth is a human being, not just a machine and not just a container for making babies. Showing women - half of all people - that they are inferior and inadequate by taking away their power to give birth is a tragedy for all society. On the other hand, respecting the woman as an important and valuable human being and making certain that the woman’s experience while giving birth is fulfilling and empowering is not a nice extra, it is absolutely essential as it makes the woman strong and makes society strong.
Humanised birth means putting the woman giving birth in the centre and in control so that she and not the doctors or anyone else makes the decisions about what will happen. Humanised birth means understanding that the focus of maternity services is community based primary care, not hospital based tertiary care... Humanised birth means maternity services which are based on good scientific evidence including evidence based use of technology and drugs.”

From “Fish can’t see water: the need to humanise birth by M. Wagner

It was an article published in the International Journal of Gynaecology & Obstetrics

@jj1968

Please don’t call protecting women’s rights ‘moral panic’.

Do women really have the right to demand that HCPs should not use trans inclusive language when treating trans men? I'm not sure that's a 'right' is it?

I have no problem whatsoever with health care professionals using appropriate language when attending trans patients. No one with any sense would do.

The problem is when this comes at the cost of language appropriate to women. Which it seems, according to people who have read it, this document does NOT do.

The use of ‘moral panic’ and ‘rage’ is a common theme amongst those who are only interested in silencing women speaking about the impacts of other rights on their rights.

It’s like the sleight of hand saying, this Trust is saying that it is a ‘guidance’. This trust that has form for calling a woman requesting a female hcp for a breast check a bigot and using her communication as a reference on what bigotry and transphobia are.

Maybe the reaction of women displays a lack of trust in this Trust. And a lack of trust in Stonewall.

There is also a complete lack of acknowledgement that this is a ever growing list of the use of dehumanization around the language of women. This Is but the latest. For once a poster wants to keep the thread on its subject.

Though it is nice that we are told to keep it in perspective, just a few transmen are in need of this language change to feel ‘comfortable’. And you other women who are uncomfortable with the changes happening in your communications from your support groups and health services, your comfort doesn’t matter. So shut up with your complaining.

What comes after rage and moral panic? Frothing and hysteria?

Wonder which group of people have used these words against women in the past? Doesn’t really change much.

People who are male, identify as male or at least no longer identify as being female making changes for women’s services and the language used around it.

Moral panic?

Give me a fucking break.

I wonder why transmen don’t identify as “gentlemen” if they did they might be kinder to the “ladies” and leave women’s issues to women.

I guess they identify as a different type of man

But of course the point is that when the word woman has a new definition the traditional idea of women’s issues/rights/problems has a new definition and that is the brick wall that we keep coming up against.

Gender ideology and queer theory teach that there is nothing specific at all about being a woman, it is merely a construct.

I happen to have an old copy of The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding

“Many women are surprised by the passion they come to feel about breastfeeding. If you meet another breastfeeding woman anywhere in the world, you feel a connection, no matter how different her culture is, and no matter how long ago you or she breastfed your babies. Not many of us felt this passionately about breastfeeding until we did it ourselves, and many of us remember it as one of the best things we do in our lives. The experience is just that powerful.”

There are people who really want to cut women off from any kind of powerful connection to one another.

There are people who really do want to think of gestational carriers and birthing bodies as machines or containers for making babies.

I don’t know how to see this other than as steps towards dehumanising and disempowering women and to turning us back into chattel.

I came across this from 2001 and I can’t help feeling that we were on the right track then but that we have really lost our way.

Yes. It's sad.

The use of ‘moral panic’ and ‘rage’ is a common theme amongst those who are only interested in silencing women speaking about the impacts of other rights on their rights.

It’s like the sleight of hand saying, this Trust is saying that it is a ‘guidance’. This trust that has form for calling a woman requesting a female hcp for a breast check a bigot and using her communication as a reference on what bigotry and transphobia are.

Maybe the reaction of women displays a lack of trust in this Trust. And a lack of trust in Stonewall.

There is also a complete lack of acknowledgement that this is a ever growing list of the use of dehumanization around the language of women. This Is but the latest.

Yes, exactly.