Breastfeeding is now chestfeeding, Brighton’s trans-friendly midwives are told

[Mulletsaremisunderstood]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/breastfeeding-is-now-chestfeeding-brightons-trans-friendly-midwives-are-told-pwlvmcnc7

Hope this link works as I am a subscriber to the times and logged in.

More nonsense being peddled as 'progressive' . When will the madness end!!?

I looked to see if anyone had put in an FOI request about this new policy and will be interested to see the outcome of this one:

*Dear Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals NHS Trust,

Whilst browsing Twitter today I came across your trans/nb inclusion leaflet and policy. Could you please provide me with the documents, research papers and names of any organisations you relied on to help you formulate your policy.

Whilst checking your website under special services I couldn't find any inclusive policies in the list regarding disabled and the BAME women Could you also provide me with policies that relate to both of these groups*

I might yet submit one myself around this but feel suitably chastened by the plea to not add work to an overburdened NHS during a pandemic. It'll keep, though.

Fantastic NancyDrawed! Brilliant points.

It's madness. If you a transwoman who has always wanted to be female instead of male, surely you would embrace the use of female pronouns? Just pretty sure being a femald who is desperate to be a man, and vice versa, but not employ any of the correct pronouns, and insist on entire birth language changed to suit themselves? It's beyond idiocy. I'm all for equality and people being who they want, but not when the logic is so fundamentally flawed that everyone has to change for their twisted logic. It's like years ago when The Daily Fail and The Shite spread lies saying Muslims want to ban the term happy Christmas. Well no, most Muslims couldn't care less what you said at Xmas, it was just a tiny minority (like this) who wanted it changed for everyone to support their own twisted, bigoted, extreme views. People were up in arms about it. To me this is no different, aside from this has actually gained traction If your a woman identifying as a man then by all means ask midwives to use your correct pronouns, but don't ask them to use it for the majority of people who don't identify with it just to support your twisted logic. And yes Daily Fail I am looking at you. I'll support everyone's right to free speech and equal rights, but not when it's at the expense of my own

Suddenly a chest infection is unclear whether it's lungs or mammary ducts. Unhelpful and illogical.

@LongDistanceClaret

Suddenly a chest infection is unclear whether it's lungs or mammary ducts. Unhelpful and illogical.

Or chest pain. What's that meant to indicate in this new inclusive Fantasyland?

@Justhadathought

I think anyone studying moral panics and what psychological needs are met by them would do well to read some of these threads

'Moral panic' is the latest catch-all term in hear being used in recent weeks......

The point is that whatever the case in this specific instance ( of advice to Brighton's midwives), the relentless ideological push is still behind it.

To be fair that's the kind of thing someone caught up in a moral panic would say. But how relentless is it really? On another thread on here are several nurses and HCPs saying the trans thing has hardly ever come up in their work and when it has it's been easily managed. It may seem relentless if you spend a considerable amount of your time searching for evidence of how relentless it is, but 99% of the population barely seem to have noticed it.

I think this cuts both ways btw. From a trans perspective it often feels like this is all the media talk about, and that the propaganda in the right wing press is relentless. But when I say that to someone not actively involved in the debate they'll often say really, they haven't noticed, or if they have it's alongside all the other stuff in the r/w press like refugees, BLM etc. It's just part of the background noise to them and not something that really impinges on their life. It's important to try and keep a sense of perspective I think.

It's just part of the background noise to them and not something that really impinges on their life. It's important to try and keep a sense of perspective I think.

I agree and I think it's important also to future-proof language and laws in language that would impact future generations.

If this policy and others go by without question and general awareness isn't raised by media coverage, threads like this etc, changes would be made without us even knowing about it and you can't react if you're not informed. A bit like the GRA.

It's fair for women to have concerns around the removal of the word mother based on all we know so far about the word women. If the gender ideologists and self ID supporters didn't make such a fuss over the word women, and if this was a stand alone event, it might have gone by unnoticed but their timing is off, it's too late now, the cat is out of the bag.

It would be good to know if an impact equality assessment was done and if there are similar policies around pregnant disabled/BAME women or women of other minority groups ...or maybe these groups don't want language in maternity services to be changed.

To be fair that's the kind of thing someone caught up in a moral panic would say. But how relentless is it really?

Please don’t call protecting women’s rights ‘moral panic’. It is offensive.

While justifiable on an individual patient level, if generalised, ‘chestfeeding’ is just plain sexist.

Please don’t call protecting women’s rights ‘moral panic’.

Do women really have the right to demand that HCPs should not use trans inclusive language when treating trans men? I'm not sure that's a 'right' is it?

Again, you aren’t actually reading what I wrote, which you would if you genuinely wanted a conversation.

1st clause: justifiable on an individual patient level.

2nd clause: sexist when generalised.

A wise poster many moons ago suggested that the best approach to community disrupters is not to engage.

Some people have no skin in the game.

Those best placed to discuss improvements in breastfeeding support and midwifery are those who have used, are using or will be likely to use those services.

Good advice Daisies!

it's hardly lying to use chest feeding, its just a different way of describing something and one which does not affect you in the slightest

When someone with absolutely no experience of breastfeeding, the struggles of it, the meaning of it, the loss of it, the pain, ramifications and consequences of it comes on a site called Mumsnet, on a board for women, and tells us why we shouldn't be upset that the language we use for our experiences is not important, doesn't matter and is not even our business, yes it fucking affects us. How dare you!

@Toseland

I’m so upset by this I’m almost in tears. I breastfed my child for 2.5 years as did my Mother and my Grandmothers before her. We know this isn’t about ‘gender inclusion’ as there are already gender neutral words for breastfeeding that could be used e.g. ‘nursing’. Whomever is behind all this just want to take women’s words away and this chills me to the core. What does this mean for women in the future? Every time I see the word ‘inclusion’ I take it to mean exclusion for women and girls. This is pure evil and I will now fight this with everything I have. Utter bastards.

I realise I'm way back in the thread now but @toseland you captured it perfectly. Just perfect. How i felt when I read on their website that they will use terms like "birthing people" and that list of "trans birthing parents" who have contributed to their document.

No, no, fucking NO.

As many have said, wheres the "inclusion" for black women? Where's the inclusion for women?? Christ when I think of how people have been treated by men during labour, how I was treated by a male doctor after a birth tear, and then this?? Makes me seethe.

@merrymouse

Again, you aren’t actually reading what I wrote, which you would if you genuinely wanted a conversation.

1st clause: justifiable on an individual patient level.

2nd clause: sexist when generalised.

Both of those clauses appear to have been met in this case though. It is not generalised the Trust has been very clear. But it doesn't seem to matter. People seem to like to have something to be permanently outraged about I guess. It's been the business model of the Daily Mail for decades after all.

@DaisiesandButtercups

A wise poster many moons ago suggested that the best approach to community disrupters is not to engage.

Some people have no skin in the game.

Those best placed to discuss improvements in breastfeeding support and midwifery are those who have used, are using or will be likely to use those services.

Bears repeating.

Wednesdayalltheway, yes absolutely and I was glad of your quote of Toseland’s moving post too.

@NancyDrawed

I looked to see if anyone had put in an FOI request about this new policy and will be interested to see the outcome of this one:

*Dear Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals NHS Trust,

Whilst browsing Twitter today I came across your trans/nb inclusion leaflet and policy. Could you please provide me with the documents, research papers and names of any organisations you relied on to help you formulate your policy.

Whilst checking your website under special services I couldn't find any inclusive policies in the list regarding disabled and the BAME women Could you also provide me with policies that relate to both of these groups*

I might yet submit one myself around this but feel suitably chastened by the plea to not add work to an overburdened NHS during a pandemic. It'll keep, though.

I'm not convinced you'd be adding to the workload of anyone dealing with an unusually inflated burden and they NHS shouldn't be above scrutiny because of chronic underfunding. These sorts of questions do not need input from clinicians, and ime the staff who work in the operational offices of Trusts are far removed from the frontline staff.

@DaisiesandButtercups

A wise poster many moons ago suggested that the best approach to community disrupters is not to engage.

Some people have no skin in the game.

Those best placed to discuss improvements in breastfeeding support and midwifery are those who have used, are using or will be likely to use those services.

Lovely post Daisies. Women need to have confidence in our experiences and knowledge. This hospital sought "advice" from adults with no experience of birthing /breastfeeding - and ended up with a word salad of pointlessness divorced from the reality of women's experiences and an affront to women.

Do women really have the right to demand that HCPs should not use trans inclusive language when treating trans men? I'm not sure that's a 'right' is it

Moral panic' to describe a widespread fear of a group of individuals who are perceived to threaten a community's safety or core values (Cohen, 2014)

Have you ever thought the whole notion of 'inclusion' is in itself a moral panic? What does being 'included' mean in the context of being pregnant and giving birth? What has inclusion got to do with anything a midwife might do except to speak to you using your first name, and sharing with you the best of her professional knowledge, in an open manner. Which values is she threatening by using biological correct terminology? Isn't it rather over-sensitive to get so wound up or offended by that?

Who here has ever been to see a midwife and demand she use very specific language around their personal bodily parts? If I'm squeamish about the use of certain words, that is not her responsibility. it is my issue to overcome, or to deal with.

From a trans perspective it often feels like this is all the media talk about, and that the propaganda in the right wing press is relentless

Sounds like an over-blown moral panic to me. You are seeing threats to your values absolutely everywhere.....in the face of evidence to the contrary. You are on high alert and over-sensitive......and whenever an article does come up now and then, you blow it out of all proportion.....

See how it works the other way?

Some people have no skin in the game.

I'm sorry but whether healthcare providers use trans inclusive language when treating trans patients is very much my business. Much more so, I would argue, as a trans person than yours.

Conversely I have no interest in the language used when treating non trans patients and would not dream of trying to meddle with it.

I'm not convinced you'd be adding to the workload of anyone dealing with an unusually inflated burden and they NHS shouldn't be above scrutiny because of chronic underfunding. These sorts of questions do not need input from clinicians, and ime the staff who work in the operational offices of Trusts are far removed from the frontline staff.

Most, if not all, Trusts employ an FOI officer.

I'm not convinced you'd be adding to the workload of anyone dealing with an unusually inflated burden and they NHS shouldn't be above scrutiny because of chronic underfunding.

I agree, the person who responds to FOI isn't going to be a midwife on the front line.

Whoever had time during a global pandemic to write the policy ('Helen' and 'Ash' according to McConnell) has time to answer a few questions about how they came up with it.

I'm sorry but whether healthcare providers use trans inclusive language when treating trans patients is very much my business. Much more so, I would argue, as a trans person than yours

What do you mean by 'inclusive' language? What could a midwife say in the context of her role that would not include you?

What is 'exclusive' about using biologically correct terminology? Why would you want to pretend that breastmilk, for example, does not come from breast tissue?

Can you explain?