Breastfeeding is now chestfeeding, Brighton’s trans-friendly midwives are told

[Mulletsaremisunderstood]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/breastfeeding-is-now-chestfeeding-brightons-trans-friendly-midwives-are-told-pwlvmcnc7

Hope this link works as I am a subscriber to the times and logged in.

More nonsense being peddled as 'progressive' . When will the madness end!!?

This mangling of language is snowflake culture on hormones.

Transmen have usually had mastectomies to get rid of the dreaded breasts.

Exactly so minus the breasts they do indeed have chests as do all men and all women.

Basically you feed a baby with breasts or bottle feeding. Bottle feeding is already a term we have and use with no problem, even the women who have breasts may also (or instead of) bottle feed.

The chest feeding bit is the bit I understand the least but all of it is utter nonsense.

"Will you be breastfeed or bottle feeding?"
Just pick one, you don't need to change any words or definition. If nothing else it's just making work for yourself.

@Thislittlefinger123

jj1968 I completely disagree. You can't request an opt out of basic biology, and nor should taxes be spend funding such nonsense. It also feeds into a much higher, damaging narrative that validating this rubbish is okay. No. It's. Not.

I very much doubt it cost that much to add this into the document. I'm curious though, if a trans man presents to maternity services and asks for trans inclusive language to be used do you think the HCPs should ignore him and refer to him as a woman/mother?

The facts don't seem to matter in the slightest - the rage feels too good to abandon whatever the truth may be.

Exactly jj. mamalian young are fed by breast milk and in humans that is frm the breasts. Both male and female humans have breasts unless they have been removed and so breastfeeding is factually correct. So why the rage at refering to breastfeeding as breastfeeding.

What about a lesbian couple who ask that birthing parents be used rather than mother because they are both mothers?

So why the rage at refering to breastfeeding as breastfeeding.

I'm not really seeing any rage. Just some guidance issued that helps HCPs understand how to make maternity services more welcoming for trans men.

But men have breasts so why would men be offended about breastfeeding. Its not a necessity, if they have retained their breasts but their breast cause disphoria then they don't have to breastfeed.
I know plenty of mothers who never breastfeed for many reasons

JJ, why is breastfeeding offensive for transmen?

Can you not see that language, particularly medical language, needs to be accurate? Pain in the breasts is very different, and requires very different treatment to pain in the chest - would a medical practitioner be expected to refer to a transman's 'chest' if they were experiencing mastitis for example?

I'm not really seeing any rage. Just some guidance issued that helps HCPs understand how to make maternity services more welcoming for trans men.

It's not clear whether this is guidance on patient specific care, or guidance on general communication.

If it's patient specific care, it's just good practice. Within reason care is supposed to be non-judgemental and patient focused, and any HCP will have to accommodate people from different cultures and backgrounds.

However, specifically changing gender neutral language (breastfeeding) to gendered language (chestfeeding masculine, breastfeeding masculine) in general communication would be wrong.

editing to add:

"specifically changing gender neutral language (breastfeeding) to gendered and inaccurate language"

But men have breasts so why would men be offended about breastfeeding. Its not a necessity, if they have retained their breasts but their breast cause disphoria then they don't have to breastfeed.

Well if trans men say this makes them uncomfortable and they would prefer a different term to be used then why not, whatever the reasons? HCPs make accommodation to language and how they treat people for all kinds of cultural and social reasons. And surely it's important that trans men feep comfortable and confident accessing healthcare. More important in fact than someone's outrage that someone else may use terms to describe themselves that annoy them.

@merrymouse

I'm not really seeing any rage. Just some guidance issued that helps HCPs understand how to make maternity services more welcoming for trans men.

It's not clear whether this is guidance on patient specific care, or guidance on general communication.

If it's patient specific care, it's just good practice. Within reason care is supposed to be non-judgemental and patient focused, and any HCP will have to accommodate people from different cultures and backgrounds.

However, specifically changing gender neutral language (breastfeeding) to gendered language (chestfeeding masculine, breastfeeding masculine) in general communication would be wrong.

The hospital trust have confirmed t the BBC this isn;t the case

"We are taking a gender-additive approach to the language used to describe our services," a statement from the hospital explains.

It adds that "a gender-additive approach means using gender-neutral language alongside the language of womanhood, in order to ensure that everyone is represented and included".

'Breast' is a neutral description for the structures in both males and females on the exterior of the chest.

Men have nipples and breast tissue and can get breast cancer (though at much lower numbers than women). See the Cancer UK website for details.

Chest includes the whole of the upper part of the torso, including the interior.

A chest X-ray A chest x-ray produces images of the heart, lungs, airways, blood vessels and the bones of the spine and chest.

Chestfeeding is a nonsense word, in common speech and in medical parlance.

jj1968 you haven't read my post or the quote you have copied.

"a gender-additive approach means using gender-neutral language alongside the language of womanhood, in order to ensure that everyone is represented and included".

This ^^ is the problem. It doesn't make sense.

'Breastfeeding' is not 'the language of womanhood'. It is a completely gender neutral term that describes how humans whose SEX is female can feed babies. It does not imply anything about gender identity or relative levels of femininity.

'Chest-feeding' is not gender neutral, it is being used incorrectly to provide a 'masculine' alternative to people who suffer from dysphoria. This then turns 'breastfeeding' into a feminine term.

It's the equivalent of taking a neutral term like farmer and 'adding' 'farmeress' on the basis that the existing word doesn't already include women.

jj1968

As a matter of fact - biology, the transman has given birth, so therefore has "mothered" the baby.
Nobody should be compelled to tell lies in order to validate some other person's belief system.

@andyoldlabour

jj1968

As a matter of fact - biology, the transman has given birth, so therefore has "mothered" the baby.
Nobody should be compelled to tell lies in order to validate some other person's belief system.

It's not telling lies to use person occassionally instead of women or birth partner occassionally instead of Mother. Women are people you know, and parents. And it's hardly lying to use chest feeding, its just a different way of describing something and one which does not affect you in the slightest.

And it's hardly lying to use chest feeding, its just a different way of describing something and one which does not affect you in the slightest.

I wouldn’t call it lying exactly, but it isn’t accurate, therefore it is not benign to use it generally ‘alongside’ other communication, even if it is appropriate in a very limited number of situations.

It also does affect people generally if gender is forced onto existing gender neutral language.

The best advice is not to engage with community disrupters.

Some people have no skin in the game.

I think that women themselves are best placed to decide what is and is not appropriate in midwifery and women’s health.

I think anyone studying moral panics and what psychological needs are met by them would do well to read some of these threads

'Moral panic' is the latest catch-all term in hear being used in recent weeks......

The point is that whatever the case in this specific instance ( of advice to Brighton's midwives), the relentless ideological push is still behind it.

And it's hardly lying to use chest feeding, its just a different way of describing something and one which does not affect you in the slightest

Except is doesn't describe the process at all...and it does effect us as women, even if not on an individual basis - because it represents the insidious creep of reality denying nonsense.

Fair point Daisies

@Justhadathought

I think anyone studying moral panics and what psychological needs are met by them would do well to read some of these threads

'Moral panic' is the latest catch-all term in hear being used in recent weeks......

The point is that whatever the case in this specific instance ( of advice to Brighton's midwives), the relentless ideological push is still behind it.

Agree - it’s used at both ends of the political spectrum to shut down dissent.

What about a lesbian couple who ask that birthing parents be used rather than mother because they are both mothers?

No. Legally only one of them is the mother. Otherwise should egg donors be called mothers? How else would the lesbian partner of the woman who is pregnant and/giving birth a mother? She would be legal parent if they are married but don't you have to adopt the child to get parental rights? A midwife might ask who to hand the baby to for a first cuddle and as they are in the room a midwife would use 1sr person language... she might ask terms they prefer but that's between them, it doesn't require a policy.

if a trans man presents to maternity services and asks for trans inclusive language to be used do you think the HCPs should ignore him and refer to him as a woman/mother?

There really is no need to do anything other than by name:

"Push Freddy, ok now breath"

"How are you feeling now is the epidural wearing off?"

HCPs make accommodation to language and how they treat people for all kinds of cultural and social reasons.

Do you have any examples? HCPs deal with bodies so biology is pretty key to how they explain treatment and unless someone is unconscious or a minor the treatment is discussed directly with the patient.

And it's hardly lying to use chest feeding, its just a different way of describing something and one which does not affect you in the slightest.

Mastitis is an infection of milk ducks in your breast/s it is not a chest infection. Your ability to breath with your lungs is not connected to your breasts and I think this whole thread is testament to how it affects everyone judging by those commenting.

Also you can human milk feed with a bottle so human milk might not involve breastfeeding. You can change words to mean different things in your own head but when you do so you can't expect people to understand you and good communication during medical situations is important.

Well said OhHolyJesus.

This link to BSUH NHS Trust Maternity/'Perinatal' Specialist Gender Services was posted on a previous page in this thread.

It is worth reading through the additional services offered in order to be gender inclusive, it's definitely not all about language. Read and compare with the other specialised services on the BSUH maternity pages. It is clear that the gender specialised services are more extensive, more personalised, and a lot more expensive than the services offered to pregnant women, and more extensive than the other specialised maternity services listed on the site (for teenage mothers, mothers with mental health requirements for example).

The Specialist Gender Services include Specialist medical professionals, Gender Inclusive Midwives, Gender Inclusive Consultant Obstetrician, GI Consultant Neonatologist, GI Consultant Endocrinologist, GI Speciality Doctor in Sexual & Reproductive Health, and GI Specialist Infant Feeding Midwife.

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Additional Gender Inclusive Support available includes:

'As Gender Inclusion Midwives we can provide extra support to you during and following your pregnancy, alongside your regular community midwife appointments. This can include:

Talking about where you would feel most comfortable having your midwife appointments (e.g. at home instead of at a Children’s Centre)

Pronoun stickers for your notes (these are optional, they will only be used if you wish to communicate your pronouns to all healthcare professionals you may meet)

Company and support at other appointments, such as scans

Personalised birth, feeding and parenting preparation (antenatal classes) at home .....

Tour of the hospital facilities where you may choose to have your baby .... '

www.bsuh.nhs.uk/maternity/our-services/specialist-support/gender-inclusion/

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