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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Labour MP for Leeds says he OPPOSES single-sex spaces

143 replies

PotholeParadies · 04/02/2021 20:58

This was the question:

Do you agree that there should be sex-segregated facilities for women in hospitals, schools, refuges and prisons?

Alex Sobel, Labour MP for Leed NW said: No.

twitter.com/alexsobel/status/1356382772152184832?s=19

Labour MP for Leeds says he OPPOSES single-sex spaces
OP posts:
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Claphands · 05/02/2021 11:24

Why does every single woke person call everyone who doesn’t totally agree with them a bigot!? I’m heartily sick of it

Labour MP for Leeds says he OPPOSES single-sex spaces
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Argoscatalogueandabingoma · 05/02/2021 11:28

I think it's projection

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morninglive · 05/02/2021 11:31

Men do not belong to the sex class of women, however they choose to present, whatever their “gender identity” is, whatever their name is, whatever their inner feelings are. They belong to the sex class of men

@FamilyOfAliens I take your point, but I do qualify 'gender' by the word 'natural' as in 'biological'. Men cannot be biological/natural women no matter what.

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Defaultname · 05/02/2021 11:42

@Rubidium

I see the editor of the Yorkshire Post has taken notice:
twitter.com/JayMitchinson/status/1357450746111868930

I wonder what the farmers of North Yorkshire make of all this gender stuff. I imagine the idea of sex being on a spectrum is news to people whose livelihood depends on producing new sheep and cows every year.

There are some weird and wonderful replies to Mr.Mitchinson:

Where should my non binary offspring piss? Where should my bearded trans man friend who still has labia piss? Its not about bigotry, it about practical lives.

"transgender females are females. I think the discussion starts there".
(Which surely means "the discussion ends there"?)

try and imagine how terrifying it would be to not identify as the gender I've been labelled as but still be forced into spaces with only that gender. I'd take feeling less safe, if that even was a factor, to make trans people feel more safe.

Is it editorial policy
@yorkshirepost
to refer to transgender women as ‘male bodied strangers’? That’s definitely bigoted.

The original post wasn’t about male female though. It was about trans gender people using the toilet they feel comfortable using. The woman in question has #biologyisnotbigotry in her bio. So is clearly trying to deny the rights of trans gender people.
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Defaultname · 05/02/2021 11:45

Oh. All my above post should have lots of quotation marks, including that final "The original post..." one!

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ArabellaScott · 05/02/2021 11:50

Astonishing.

As someone else noted, though, at least he is being very clear and straightforward instead of trying to wriggle out of it.

Now we see what the end game is, we can discuss what the possible problems might be with:

Mixed sex prisons
Mixed sex changing rooms
Mixed sex hospital wards
Mixed sex domestic violence shelters/refuges

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Xanthangum · 05/02/2021 11:55

As long as words and definitions aren't misused, what's the problem? Let universities or wokey-councils create "women and trans-women" spaces, let political parties have "women and trans-women" shortlists, let sporting meetings have "women and trans women" sports.

As long as all those things can co-exist with their women-only equivalents. And everything is clearly, unambiguously indicated, with signage in all sorts of languages.

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FamilyOfAliens · 05/02/2021 11:57

FamilyOfAliens I take your point, but I do qualify 'gender' by the word 'natural' as in 'biological'. Men cannot be biological/natural women no matter what.

I think using “natural gender” to mean “biological” just muddies the water.

Sex is biology.
Gender is belief.

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ANewCreation · 05/02/2021 12:12

So, Alex Sobel, a shadow junior minister for the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and SPORT speaks out against the legal rights and protection of Women as set out in the Equality Act 2010, the law of our country - and the Labour Party is silent.

Okaaaay

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Zinco · 05/02/2021 12:17

But "women and trans women" sports probably isn't going to be especially successful. I don't know, maybe for certain sports at a certain level... but I don't see why it would be interesting for elite athletics say. Biological women would just stick to the biological women class.

Also, if you seperate in that way, I'm guessing you will have some people who say it doesn't fit with TWAW. What I imagine some people want, is that everyone has to go along with the idea that trans-women are completely 100% women and are to be treated exactly the same, and they will only take into account the difference in biology if absolutely forced to like with healthcare where biological difference becomes difficult to ignore.

I would say change the men's category to "men's and open class", and then everyone has a category they can compete in, if they are good enough. Obviously that solution wouldn't be liked.

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IWillSqueakAgain · 05/02/2021 12:43

Of course women’s rights do not equal bigotry,

But leaving that aside,

Don’t all mps look for all groups of voters to vote for them? Is he aware how voting works??

Even the misogynistic voters out there who celebrate his pro self id stance might well vote against him for his blatant stupidity of that remark. I can’t imagine anyone voter regardless of their views on women’s rights would have any confidence that he knew how to change a light bulb never mind anything else if he doesn’t understand mps seek out all votes they can get.

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IWillSqueakAgain · 05/02/2021 12:46

Clap & argos

It’s that thing primary schools kids do when a kid calls them stupid they clap back ‘no your stupid’ then act like the fact they said it makes it reality and wins them the entire argument.

Course most kids grow out of it age 10 or so at least.

Stunted doesn’t quite cover it.

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HermioneWeasley · 05/02/2021 12:49

I started an AIBU about this. The misogyny is just rampant.

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shellshock77 · 05/02/2021 13:08

I've written to my (labour) MP.

First time I've done this, but something needs to be done about how women are being treated. It is getting worse by the week it seems.

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TirisfalPumpkin · 05/02/2021 13:09

It is always Leeds too. I’m beginning to think someone put kool-aid in the water.

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NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 05/02/2021 13:32

Seriously? He said 'No'?

I have no words ..... Angry

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Helmetbymidnight · 05/02/2021 14:17

My post was deleted? Sad

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TerrificEchidnaSpikes · 05/02/2021 14:44

When I saw the thread title, I knew it would be him, because he has form (less blatant than this, but form nevertheless). He is my MP.

I want to write to him and complain, but I am a coward. He knows who we are because we have corresponded before about other issues. Both I and my DH work for woke employers in this woke woman-hating city. We can't afford to be outed and hounded out of work as bigots, and if any sniff of our views got out, we would be.

Needless to say, we will not be voting for him in this house. But elections are years away.

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Livinginthecity · 05/02/2021 14:51

So Labour has lost the Scottish vote, the Northern vote and the women's vote.

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NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 05/02/2021 15:19

Is he ignorant or lying?

He's an MP .... I think we know which!

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HeadPain · 05/02/2021 15:49

I just read his follow up tweet about "bigots". What a stupid, nasty, patronising, misogynistic piece of work. Wow.

I was basically new to politics and didn't believe Jess Phillips when she said in 2017 that left-wing men were the "absolute worst" sexists, it's worse than "out-and-out sexists of the right", that Labour has a misogyny problem, outwardly displaying they're for equality but don't think of women on the same level, and deligitimize their voice. I terribly naively didn't believe that men on the left could be sexist. Jess also said, “Men who want to own your equality and the things you fought for are absolutely fine if they want you to own it as well but when they want it to puff out their own chests, that is really, really, really annoying.” It has all definitely become apparent to me over the last few years.

Alex displaying here that left-wing men really think they know better than women and can decide what we are, decide what we should think, decide why we think something that they don't want us to think (because we're bigots of course!), refuse to listen to us about our own issues, speaking over us about things which affect us, think they know better than us, and feel entirely comfortable doing this in public, disregarding us and libelling us with name calling.

Well, we have our own fucking brains thanks, and it's us who has the woke-quote "lived experience" as women, not you Alex, and not any male. Wow. The fucking audacity of it. Not that I'd have thought you needed lived experience to realise what a lunatic idea it is to have mixed sexed prisons and refuges. Anyway, I suspect this may wake many people up, so glad he wrote it, spread it far and wide. Used to like this guy. Now I much prefer Jacob Rees Mogg, at least regarding Joanna Cherry and this issue, disgusted with the abuse she's received and stating "And much that I disagree with her on so many things, may I commend her courage in standing up for freedom of speech and putting forward her views, clearly in a difficult and sensitive area but one where she has a right to be heard." Just those last 10 words are a big deal for me to hear after all of this stomping on by left/liberal men. Contrast with Owen Jones also and his celebration of the treatment of Joanna Cherry by the SNP and his salivating at the prospect of action against female Labour MPs/members, including a survivor of domestic violence. Also OJ was fantasising about some how banning "transphobes" from watching a TV show he liked. This guy is 36. Anyone asked OJ if he's open to sexual relationships with transmen, self-id, pre & post "transition"? If he's not prepared to do various sexual deeds with female body parts (of which there is no such thing we're told, just like a transwoman's penis is female, a transman's vagina is male, right?), he's a Transphobe. As I've been told. Funnily enough Jess and Owen don't seem to get along, and Jess has some kind of friendship with JRM and described him as a "real gent". Also saying “[Rees-Mogg] is who he is,” she said. “People might not like that, but… I find that much more appealing than spending a week with someone who’s a fake.” About the abuse Jess had, a lot of which came from left-wing men, but was also from across the political spectrum, JRM said “This is something we should take really seriously. The abuse of women online for sharing their views is a disgrace.” “It is a real disgrace of modern society and will discourage women politicians from going into it if they are treated the way Jess is. It is deeply outrageous.” Alex here I'd say is partaking in abuse of women online, name calling us, and encouraging it.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/07/misogyny-feminism-stop-the-war-jeremy-corbyn
Jess: "
Why I won’t shut up about misogyny and the left"
"I suggested that some leftwing feminists will forgive anything if it is done by a leftwing man..."

"...In both these cases, people appeared to take leave of their senses because there was a leftwing man to protect. “Oh, sweetheart, don’t you realise the cause is more important? Take this one for the team.” I know this happens in all sections of society; the hard left just seem to have a special talent for it.

I believe the Labour leadership team do want to fight for equality for women but they think it is a happy byproduct of the cause, something that will trickle down without actually being campaigned for. And because of this they could potentially turn a blind eye to terrible misogyny in some of the causes they support. What worries me about this is that good feminists might turn a blind eye too, for the sake of their man."

I absolutely refuse to have this issue sneeringly reduced to the suggestion that it's just all about toilets and going to pee - but one question - which unisex toilets have we always had? I've only seen unisex toilets as a single room containing its own handwashing facilities, with the door onto an open corridor of the building, the toilets not being in a shared room/cubicles in a room at all. Why is he even bringing that up and comparing it to prisons, refuges, hospital wards, if that's what he's doing?

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foxhat · 05/02/2021 17:06

I made a complaint to the labour party. Not expecting them to listen given how far they've moved away from any sensible understanding of what gender and sex are. Perhaps they're so busy self identifying as the good guys that they're no longer able to see that they are the aggressors.

I am a life long labour supporter btw but not sure they have my vote next time unless they move position to something more ethical in this regard.

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NiceGerbil · 05/02/2021 17:31

He went much further than a lot of others

Most say keep separate male and female but twaw so they go with the women.

This bloke said he did not think women should have single sex prisons, sports, refuges etc etc which is a massive step further.

Also bizarrely one a lot of trans people wouldn't like as they want separate but to go into eg women's prison in self ID. They don't want everything mixed either.

So really it's not too do with trans he's more like the mras who say 'you wanted equality now I can punch you in the face'.

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Violetparis · 05/02/2021 17:50

That Jess Philips article is 5 years old, she has since said TWAW and keeps a low profile on the issue.

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Childrenofthestones · 05/02/2021 19:11

"Labour MP for Leeds says he OPPOSES single-sex spaces"

So brave.🙄

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