Transmisogyny in women’s shelters.

[Whatdoyoudowhendemocracyfails]

A year-long investigation has concluded a “cohort of powerful feminists” is deliberately freezing out transwomen from accessing services for domestic violence victims.

Didn’t realise we had so much power

gal-dem.com/transphobia-sexual-violence-sound-like-a-man-hang-up-vawg-investigation/

It's just bizarre. But Alison Phipps is an "academic" in the mould of Sally Hines. I wouldn't trust her to write a shopping list.

Exactly aroundtheworld. Trauma responses are outside of our conscious control. So the knowing a good penis from a bad suggestion by PP is extremely misguided. Women who have been traumatised by males are often wary of any other males, however they identify or present. And males that are in places where you would not expect a male - a single sex refuge for example - are likely to be perceived as even more threatening because their unwanted presence in a previously female space has echoes of the original abuse.

Those of you who find this intolerable, don't you think stopping men from being abusive in the first place might be a better use of your energy? Rather than attacking female victims for having the trauma responses which all mammals exhibit?

I'm all for mixed sex in lots of things, I do gender neutral parenting etc. But single sex services and protections exist for a (very unfortunate) reason, not as a fun club.

If you can't differentiate between the penis that did you wrong and the penis of some poor person just going about her life, then the issue is with you,

Hence the need for specialist counselling you twonk.

Allcats, you work in a shelter. You are not seeking shelter there. You are not there because you don’t dare go home, for fear of further violence. Can you see the essential difference?

You presumably go back to your own safe home after work. You are not in need of help. The shelter is not run for you, it is for the women who have suffered violence, in most cases by men, and who do not feel safe around men.

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

Stonewall have so much money that they don't know how to spend it. So Stonewall come on and make some shelter's for trans people.

Redshoe, that’s a brilliant idea. Stonewall jumped on the trans bandwagon when its original gay-rights aims were all achieved. It’s now caught up in child-safeguarding problems like GIDS. But why not do something genuinely useful and protect trans people who genuinely are suffering?

It’s interesting- Stonewall have so much opportunity to do good for the people they claim to support. Campaigning for and helping to find proper research for trans people. Campaigning for and helping to fund good mental health support for trans people. Supporting lesbian and gay groups - they seem to be struggling a bit at the moment (remind me why that is..?)

Instead they are conducting a UK wide campaign to ensure that employers ignore the current law regarding discrimination. They are campaigning to allow children who can’t give informed consent the means to be be sterilised and their growth stunted. On a large scale they are deliberately undermining single sex spaces and facilities along with safeguarding and trying to ensure that male bodied athletes get to play rugby with women. Just a bit odd in my mind.

Holy shit, did someone really say that the women here will be unlikely to ever need the services of a shelter? I just... wow. You're so wrong. And to say to someone who does and wanted and needed it to be a female space that she should 'show a little empathy'?

How come empathy and kindness is always such a fucking one way street when it comes to this? How come certain sections of the populace are allowed to bleat about safe spaces to make sure they never hear a contrary word, but when women talk about feeling safe because they've been abused, it's suddenly gaslight central - 'pull yourself together, do you think all penises are out to get you, some penises suffer way more than you anyway!'

Lots of things made me reticent about contacting womens aid. The thought that I might speak to a woman who thinks I should just pull myself together and think of how he is struggling too was one of them. If that's you, you're in the service to make yourself feel righteous, not for the women who need the service. Think on.

This leads to the surreal situation that gal-dem are accusing Southall Black Sisters of racism and white feminism.

I was thinking this. Confess to not reading the gal-dem piece. Did they cover how apparently police are just as likely to arrest migrant and asylum abuse victims as find them a refuge? Did they cover that apparently black victims of DV are less likely to report their abuser to the police, because, whilst they want safety away from the abuser, they don't want the police to accidentally kill their abuser?

Southall Black Sisters are a great organisation to donate to, inclusive and intersectional in the old meanings of the words. Solace Women's aid is another.

Excellent post yetmorenamechanging, excellent.

but when women talk about feeling safe because they've been abused, it's suddenly gaslight central - 'pull yourself together, do you think all penises are out to get you, some penises suffer way more than you anyway"

It's quite stark, isn't it?

@SweetPetrichor

"If you've been repeatedly raped the last thing you need is a penis in the vicinity." Penis' are just a fact of life...half the population have them. If you can't differentiate between the penis that did you wrong and the penis of some poor person just going about her life, then the issue is with you, not with the trans woman accessing services. Do you demand to look in the pants of every female to make sure she isn't secretly bedecked with a penis? Do you start judging women on whether they are 'masculine' looking...they must have a dick.

Yes, ideally there should be a system in place for trans gender individuals, but there isn't an they still deserve help. But these types of facilities are very much stacked against anyone with a penis. There's very little out there for male victims of domestic abuse or sexual abuse. It's brushed under the rug. I guarantee someone is going to roll out a screed of stats in response to this claiming why men are so rarely the victim, but does that help the men that are? And how many male victims go unnoticed, feeling unable to seek help...that skews stats massively. Men have a shit time of it. They're stuck in a place where it's stigmatised to be the victim.

Couldn't you have just said NAMALT and saved a lot of bother?

Those of you who find this intolerable, don't you think stopping men from being abusive in the first place might be a better use of your energy? Rather than attacking female victims for having the trauma responses which all mammals exhibit?

Good point. Many of the supporters of this approach are advocating for the undermining of single sex spaces that women need for safety.

They are also advocating to make it more difficult for women to access the support they need. In my mind if a rape survivor says that they need a male free space - I think it only humane to take her word for it - no?

I very much doubt the advocates for rape shelters including male bodied people have actually asked the women in there but if maybe they have and those specific women have said it is ok that doesn’t override the needs of the other women who say it is not ok.

I also fail to see what possible benefit to women there would be to have a male person answering the phone. Why would rape shelters be advertising for ‘self-identified women’ as frontline staff? If just one woman calls the helpline and puts the phone down because a male voice has answered then that service has failed her.

Why is that deemed acceptable by anyone?

Having male bodied people in a rape shelter is of absolutely no benefit to women. It is very likely to be a huge detriment to many women so why is anyone pushing for it?

Hence the need for specialist counselling you twonk.

Exactly, women need counselling to get over their fear and discomfort with men, can you recommend a female-only counselling service then please?

MishyJDI

Hi!

I'm a longstanding mumsnetter, which means I am fully aware from reading the boards that literate women with some form of internet access and children (our main demographic) experience domestic abuse and need refuge services.

It is very likely to be a huge detriment to many women so why is anyone pushing for it?

Isn't that the $64,000 question!

Couldn't you have just said NAMALT and saved a lot of bother?

What about NAPALT? Can that be a thing?

the attempt to reframe 70s feminists as trans-inclusive

You’re right OP, that’s total bullshit! Transsexualism (which included radical surgery) barely existed in the 70s, and in my experience, had little impact on women’s lives or concerns. I’d never heard of transgenderism (people identifying as the other sex without necessarily changing their bodies) till much later.

As a feminist involved in women’s groups, conferences, campaigns, networks, I was always discussing feminist issues with friends and strangers.

The general view, in my memory, was that transsexualism would be a problem if it became much more common, but that seemed very unlikely.

Some women I knew accepted transsexuals out of kindness, not because the women thought the TS had become women but because they had made such an effort and were so unhappy. Others just avoided them without making a big deal of it. But really, in years of campaigning, I rarely encountered a TS or heard much talk of them.

It sounds like the sector has been hijacked by well-meaning but clueless and self-absorbed volunteer types who just want to give everything away to anyone who wants it. Where is the leadership?

The general view, in my memory, was that transsexualism would be a problem if it became much more common, but that seemed very unlikely.

I think a lot of people who don't follow this issue on social media etc are still very much of the same opinion. But I think awareness is growing of the problems.

This article shows someone who is so open-minded their brains have fallen out.

@RozWatching

It sounds like the sector has been hijacked by well-meaning but clueless and self-absorbed volunteer types who just want to give everything away to anyone who wants it. Where is the leadership?

If only that were true, however coming from the voluntary sector I see this as being part of the long game

Stonewall captured national & local government, NHS and grant making charities. Look how many are stonewall champions They’ve had constant briefings from stonewall over several years on TWAW/be kind/the equality act says you can’t have single sex spaces

Where do women’s refuges get funding from? Government, NHS & grant making trusts all of whom have been told by stonewall that single sex spaces are illegal

And so when they apply for grants they have tj say they acknowledge they can’t provide single sex services & outline how they will include trans women. No includy, no money so even if they don’t agree they could never say

Thats what capture does

@NecessaryScene1

(Some on a certain other side have suggested McKinnon might be going for a Yaniv here - Friendly Fox Remodelling's ad suggests you are hiring a female contractor, and the only photo is a stock photo of a real woman. Would McKinnon sue anyone who didn't feel comfortable letting a male into their premises? Can a shelter insist on female contractors?)

Wait, the website says Vanessa?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The general view, in my memory, was that transsexualism would be a problem if it became much more common, but that seemed very unlikely.

I think a lot of people who don't follow this issue on social media etc are still very much of the same opinion. But I think awareness is growing of the problems.

This is a big issue. So many women are really clueless that there are so many men out there now who want to enter women's spaces and permanently alter laws and rules to accommodate this. Our feminist concerns are seen as overblown and antagonistic towards a tiny minority. They are truly ignorant of how big this problem has needles and of the aggressive, misogynistic attitudes of many trans activists.

i work in a frontline women’s organisation tackling violence against women and I’m happy that the organisation I work for is fully inclusive of trans women

If you work in a refuge or similar and you are happy that women are being forced to have men in that space, you should quit. Now.

I am a woman who has needed domestic abuse services. I think on a level I will always be afraid of men. I know that not everyone with a penis is going to hurt me but once you have been a victim of abuse you see how much men want to hurt women. This article has made me very upset.

That Alison Phipps is awful too. Who is she as white professor to accuse Southall Black Sisters of racism because they disagree with her. I really have no words.

Yes there should be services for Transwomen (and indeed Trans men and people of every other gender) campaign for them and set them up rather than bullying vulnerable women.