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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Joanna Cherry (SNP) sacked

383 replies

LittleRa · 01/02/2021 14:26

twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1356233346565730304?s=21
ShockSad

OP posts:
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gardenbird48 · 06/02/2021 00:18

Joanna Cherry has been appointed at deputy chair to the Human Rights Committee possibly looking at the Freedom of Speech consultation- yayy

MissBarbary · 06/02/2021 00:18

@ArabellaScott

Thanks, Charley, for that. Clear and more extensive than I could muster!
I think I'll bookmark this thread for future reference when a man is found not guilty of an accusation of a sexual offence. I've never seen such overwhelming acceptance that "not guilty" wipes the slate clean. The usual mantra is "not guilty doesn’t mean not innocent"

Such hypocrisy.

MissBarbary · 06/02/2021 00:23

@gardenbird48

Joanna Cherry has been appointed at deputy chair to the Human Rights Committee possibly looking at the Freedom of Speech consultation- yayy
Yes, indeed at Westminster, which at the beginning of the week was, according to Ms Cherry, "irrelevant".
JaimeLeeCurtains · 06/02/2021 07:19

[the allegations are that] they conspired to deprive an innocent man of his freedom in order to get rid of a potential political rival

I think Joanna Cherry is right that these investigations have to carried out thoroughly and properly, to get to the truth.

ArabellaScott · 06/02/2021 07:55

You are accusing me of hypocrisy? For what exactly, please be specific if you're going to be so rude.

Porridgeoat · 06/02/2021 08:28

Amazing clip of Joanna and Twitter executive. Highlights massive issues with their safeguarding, monitoring and training.

MissBarbary · 06/02/2021 11:32

Joan McAlpine looks as if she will lose her top slot on the list to someone with diabetes. I don't think any of the people I know with diabetes think of it as anything other than a managed condition, even if it apparently technically qualifies as a disability. I suppose my own managed condition would count as well although I wouldn't dream of claiming a reserved disability slot on the back of it.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lack-of-equalities-policy-shocks-snps-new-convener-lynne-anderson-d5jf2wbvq

I'm intrigued by the hints of snippiness between Cherry and Anderson , but the more infighting the better.

OvaHere · 06/02/2021 11:48

@MissBarbary

Joan McAlpine looks as if she will lose her top slot on the list to someone with diabetes. I don't think any of the people I know with diabetes think of it as anything other than a managed condition, even if it apparently technically qualifies as a disability. I suppose my own managed condition would count as well although I wouldn't dream of claiming a reserved disability slot on the back of it.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lack-of-equalities-policy-shocks-snps-new-convener-lynne-anderson-d5jf2wbvq

I'm intrigued by the hints of snippiness between Cherry and Anderson , but the more infighting the better.

There's clearly a discussion to be had about where the line is between conditions and disabilities. My DH has (well managed) asthma and I don't imagine him ever considering it a disabilty.

Seems inevitable that this type of thing will eventually lead to schisms amongst those who campaign on behalf of disability, if it hasn't already.

PopperUppleton · 06/02/2021 12:13

Joanna Cherry really skewers that Twitter person in the above video. I shouldn't like to be on the receiving end of her incredibly polite but razor-sharp questioning if I were in any way in the wrong!

I also love the way she says 'Twitterrr' 😄

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 06/02/2021 12:19

Ova agree, my DH has asthma which is well controlled and little more than a bit of an annoyance on high pollen days.

Our son has severe brittle asthma - for years he was very unwell, attended school 50% of the time, life threatening episodes every 6 weeks for several years. We got DLA for him, I was his carer - he was definitely disabled by it.

He was part of a trial of new medication and 5 years on, he's no longer unwell with his asthma. Not at all.

To drag self ID into disability is going to be useful because it will make society examine how we treat people who do have lives impacted by conditions, and those who are disabled by lack of access and not by their condition.

I bet there will be articles about Munchausens within a week. It'll all bring more sunlight.

Maduixa · 06/02/2021 12:19

MissBarbary: I think I'll bookmark this thread for future reference when a man is found not guilty of an accusation of a sexual offence. I've never seen such overwhelming acceptance that "not guilty" wipes the slate clean. The usual mantra is "not guilty doesn’t mean not innocent" Such hypocrisy.

Do you genuinely not think the debate is a little bit more nuanced than this?

I've spoken out in some rape/sexual assault cases where the evidence was in the public domain and I strongly felt the court ignored or disregarded it - the Belfast rugby rape case is a recent example. I've also spoken out in cases in which a guilty verdict was returned but the sentencing body basically gave the convicted rapist leeway far beyond relevant sentencing guidelines - the Brock Turner case in the USA is a recent example of this.

In the Alex Salmond case - the evidence that the public is able to see supports the court verdict of not guilty/not proven.

I never wanted to believe that a former Scottish First Minister is guilty of rape/sexual assault. And I don't want to believe that the First Minister of Scotland set someone up to be accused of rape/sexual assault. And I don't want to believe that a former UK Diplomat lied about what he knows about such a case, and that a former First Minister allowed that lie to be spread. I have no idea what is going on (and I think I'm safe in saying most mumsnetters including you are in a similar position). I absolutely HATE that we're in this situation, because who will suffer? Women, and rape victims (who are disproportionately women). But I don't know what to believe. If you do - with evidence - please enlighten us, because so far you have not.

As far as Cherry "leading" an effort to get Salmond's membership - who on earth who is not an SNP member cares? - Salmond resigned from the party to save them the trouble of suspending him while accusations were investigated. If he'd been suspended as he eventually would have been during the investigation, he would have been automatically reinstated when exonerated. People were simply saying that his resignation (which would normally carry an eighteen month prohibition on rejoining the party) should be treated as a suspension. I don't care either way, but it's a very strange thing for a non SNP member to be up in arms about.

CharlieParley · 06/02/2021 12:21

I think I'll bookmark this thread for future reference when a man is found not guilty of an accusation of a sexual offence. I've never seen such overwhelming acceptance that "not guilty" wipes the slate clean. The usual mantra is "not guilty doesn’t mean not innocent"

Such hypocrisy.

I've already addressed the issue in my last comment, but I'll answer again:

This case does not compare to other sexual assault cases, because the charges in this case were made up. The slate isn't wiped clean because of the verdict. There was no slate.

The media have hated Salmond with unrelenting fervour since forever. If Salmond was a "sex pest" as you keep claiming, they would have published allegations at the height of the independence referendum campaign. That is, after all, the time period the allegations made against him relate to. They needed ammunition against him then and would have used this without hesitation.

Furthermore, if he was a "sex pest", there would have been a slew of further claims against him since the trial, at the very least in the papers who so enjoyed their 8-page spreads when the charges were leaked to the press. Because that is what normally happens in these cases - no shortage of victims, some of whom decide to come forward only after a trial.

That hasn't happened, because whatever his faults, he is not a sexual predator. Salmond was under extreme and constant scrutiny. There would have been heaps of evidence of misconduct if he was.

He might be a bully, I have no idea, but that wasn't the charge in criminal court. (I've never liked the man, but that is neither here nor there. I haven't met him, so my view of him has been shaped very much by the same media that despises him so much.)

I think it might be useful to take independence out of the equation for a moment and look at what is alleged to have happened: the highest levels of our government pressuring police to charge an innocent man. Demanding the police tell them what evidence they need to charge him so they can provide it. (This is now a matter of public record that this happened. Read the evidence supplied to the inquiries.)

And our FM, a woman much admired across the world, as a progressive, feminist, upstanding politician, a woman I once admired, allegedly at the very top of those vile machinations.

That's extremely concerning to me. I can't think of a political scandal in recent UK history that compares to this. And now it's being covered up, the inquiry hobbled, and stacked with members loyal to the FM. Witnesses threatened with prosecution if they give their full evidence to the inquiry. By the Crown Office, allegedly up to their necks in this, too.

Just think about this. Please.

MissBarbary · 06/02/2021 12:41

And our FM, a woman much admired across the world, as a progressive, feminist, upstanding politician, a woman I once admired, allegedly at the very top of those vile machinations

Your inability to spot the flaws in Sturgeon is your problem, not mine. Your defence of Salmond is questionable too.

I love your final "just think about it" . As if it had never occurred to me the SNP are corrupt, devious, untrustworthy and incompetent. The current events are no surprise at all.

NonnyMouse1337 · 06/02/2021 13:20

Does anyone here subscribe to The National? If you do, could you please give us a jist of what seems like Mhairi Black's response to Joanna Cherry's piece earlier in the week? Smile

www.thenational.scot/news/19070210.can-stop-us-leaving-british-union/

NecessaryScene1 · 06/02/2021 13:34

MissBarbary - you sound exactly like someone obsessed with JK Rowling being a "transphobe". Is there anything that could dissuade you from your belief that Alex Salmond is a "sex pest"?

Are you willingly avoiding reading court proceedings that could challenge the belief, as others avoid reading what JK Rowling wrote?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but given the forces brought to bear to find anything to hang Salmond by, and the paucity of the results, is it not conceivable that there's nothing there?

Or are you just convinced that if someone says someone's a "transphobe"/"sex pest" that must be so, or they wouldn't have had the accusation made towards them?

Given the amount of investigation, at this point Salmond must surely be one of the best-documented non-sex pests in Scottish politics. How many other men have had decades of behaviour gone over with a fine-tooth comb?

MissBarbary · 06/02/2021 13:42

@ArabellaScott

You are accusing me of hypocrisy? For what exactly, please be specific if you're going to be so rude.
I wasn't accusing you individually but the posters on here who are never usually so quick to accept a not guilty verdict as preventing discussion of conduct. You and the Cherry supporters might want to have a look at this.

Some one asked for a link to Mhairi article in The National. I don't , but Black's twitter feed links through to this.

www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/blogs/news/1004/redir/

mobile.twitter.com/bbckirstenc/status/1356638320281980929

The QC who has nothing to say about this is Cherry.

MissBarbary · 06/02/2021 13:43

mobile.twitter.com/bbckirstenc/status/1356638320281980929

Working link.

ArabellaScott · 06/02/2021 14:17

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55957405

'SNP chief executive Peter Murrell will return to give more evidence to the inquiry into the government's handling of sexual harassment allegations against Alex Salmond on Monday.'

ArabellaScott · 06/02/2021 14:19

Nonny, I've pm'd you.

MissBarbary · 06/02/2021 14:27

NecessaryScene1

Any comments on this?

www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/blogs/news/1004/redir/

FWR posters aren't usually so keen on dismissing the views of alleged victims whose alleged accounts of assault have failed to meet the criminal standard.

Whatdoyoudowhendemocracyfails · 06/02/2021 14:34

@MissBarbary

NecessaryScene1

Any comments on this?

www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/blogs/news/1004/redir/

FWR posters aren't usually so keen on dismissing the views of alleged victims whose alleged accounts of assault have failed to meet the criminal standard.

OK, I’ll bite.

That Rape Crisis statement actually adds weight to those making the case that Salmond was fitted up.

The very essence of the Moorov doctrine, under which the case was built, is a pattern of behaviour among otherwise unconnected accusers, such that their testimonies add up to a pattern of behaviour.

That the women knew each other, and set up a support group prior to the trial, means that the Moorov doctrine should not have been used - they could have co-ordinated their testimonies.

Also given the massive concerns about jigsaw identification, the sentence in the statement that all of the women work in politics is rather startling.

Whatdoyoudowhendemocracyfails · 06/02/2021 14:36

Wings also points out another problem in this post.

wingsoverscotland.com/some-misunderstanding/

“But wait a minute. The Clerk hadn’t asked for messages from “people identified by the police and the Crown as victims of sexual harassment” at all.

The Clerk had in fact asked for messages from “Members of the Scottish Government, Scottish Government civil servants and Scottish Government Special Advisers”.

So why had COPFS apparently sent the Clerk a bundle of “private and personal” messages between the alleged victims instead of what it had been asked for?”

MissBarbary · 06/02/2021 14:44

Nice dismissal there NecessaryScene1

As I said I've never seen FWR posters so vehemently dismissing female victims.

Whatdoyoudowhendemocracyfails · 06/02/2021 14:44

Also, @MissBarbary needs to stop repeating that Alex Salmond’s “own lawyer” thinks he is a sex pest. Here is Gordon Jackson QC’s comment on that story:

“After the video footage was released, Mr Jackson said: "To be clear...I do not regard Alex Salmond as a 'sex pest', and any contrary impression is wrong."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52081790

Whatdoyoudowhendemocracyfails · 06/02/2021 14:45

@MissBarbary

Nice dismissal there NecessaryScene1

As I said I've never seen FWR posters so vehemently dismissing female victims.

God you’re a bore.
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