Can we discuss this without it getting deleted?

[HeadPain]

Thread has gone because some posts within it allegedly broke the rules. Can we discuss this without breaking the rules? It's important. It's false information, and false representation about the UK, the NHS, and about us, and women and our healthcare and lives in general. Also offensive to women, and making false equivalence and false inferrences. It's in the media, trending on twitter, liked over 200,000 times, shared tens of thousands of times...

mobile.twitter.com/PhilosophyTube/status/1355577911949070341

"Hello friends! I'm delighted to say I'm a trans woman; my name is Abigail and you can refer to me with she/her.

Thank you to everyone who kept my secret for such a long time as I prepared to come out publicly! I'm excited to continue my acting career and Philosophy Tube. Please respect my privacy and treat everyone with kindness and patience, even those who don't treat me kindly. It's so lovely to finally relax, to sleep well with sweet dreams and be at home in myself! But I'm also scared. Things are very, very bad for trans people in the UK and they're getting worse. My existing following means I have now instantly become one of the most recognisable transgender people in the country and I feel an enormous pressure to be "good at it", like if I could only be clever enough, or pretty or funny or articulate enough, things would magically come right! Alas, I can't be a perfect paragon of trans Britain, I'm just an actress, but I can relay the following facts:

Trans people have existed for as long as there has been a Britain (longer!) But even after a century of feminism the government still dictates what we may do with our own bodies. The NHS is forced by outdated rules to discriminate against us: if a cisgender (ie. Not trans) woman wants hormone replacement therapy for menopause she can get it from the GP, but if a trans person needs it to transition we have to travel to a separate clinic and be interrogated by psychiatrists. Because of this discrimination waiting lists are several years long. Women like me die waiting for the exact same medicines that bald men get from the GP to treat hair loss. Trans men die waiting for breast reduction surgery that cis women get for back pain. In England and Wales people under 16 can get an abortion, which is permanent, but trans children can't get life saving puberty blockers, which are reversible. Some politicians promise to reduce waiting times , but that's not equality; it's just more efficient discrimination. We don't have equal legal rights either. Cis people can use their passport as proof of ID when they get married or adopt children, but we can't - even though my passport says 'F' for Female i'd have to beg the government's permission to become a wife or mother. There has never been a trans MP , member of the House of Lords , MSP, MS, or MLA. No party has equal rights as a policy goal. Trans people, especially trans people of colour, are hit hardest by unemployment, homelessness, and domestic, sexual , and police violence, but the conversation always focuses on wealthy white cis women tweeting about toilets. Overworked journalists often don't know much about our lives, so antifeminists and religious extremists feed them pseudoscience and fear mongering. Antisemitic conspiracy theories about a mythical "trans lobby" controlling universities or government are printed without criticism alongside calls to have us "cured" with conversion therapy, which, shockingly, is still legal. Well-meaning folks worry about embarrassing themselves by 'saying the wrong thing', so they never speak up to help us. Like Suffragettes and black civil rights movements before us we are told to watch our tone lest the people denying us the means to live get hurt feelings.

I might only be an actress, but as a feminist I can't submit to civic inferiority or give up control of my body. In my view feminism isn't a tea party with the Queen or a girlboss brunch with #femspirational CEOs, it's our common struggle to be free. Today i'd like to add my voice to the many demanding new legislation for trans equal rights: an informed consent system of medical transition and a self-ID system of legal transition for all who desire it, including nonbinary people. Everyone else in Britain already gets their healthcare and gendered services that way; surely it's only fair that we should to? In my mind there's no question about it, just as there was no legitimate "debate" about whether to give gay and lesbian people equal rights; we don't "cancel" or "silence" Flat Earthers when we set aside their concerns about space travel and start listening to cosmonauts! That said, "equal rights" won't fix the poverty, criminalisation, surveillance, and state violence facing all those who work for a living rather than own property and capital. Trans equality must be part of a huge redistribution of power and resources so society serves human instead of profit. I hope that someday soon people of all ages realise that being trans is perfectly normal. Like all human beings we are inherently valuable and entitled to self -determination, and if that makes others upset then it's only because they're choosing not to live in reality. These are scary times, but "courage calls to courage everywhere and its voice cannot be denied." Even when other people make it hard, being trans is a gift. My love goes out to every trans person reading my words in Britain or overseas, especially those who can't come out - yet!

This above all: to think own self be true, and it must follow, as night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man!

Abigail XXx "

I am angry about this flippant remark about women: "Trans men die waiting for breast reduction surgery that cis women get for back pain." First it sounds minimising of the pain and conditions of women who need breast reduction, nerve , spinal issues. Trans people die, we just get back pain. Abigail really thinks women can just walk in to the G P and demand breast reduction (or mastectomy, since Abigail is comparing it to trans men surgery) and get it no questions asked? And the G P decides it? or they refer to a specialist immediately? Many have commented that the NHS refused to do breast reduction for them despite suffering with debilitating pain and conditions, and women who did get the NHS to do it wasn't easy and instant, having to wait and repeatedly ask to be refered, wait months to see different hospital consultants, different areas of medicine, prove their case, for example that they can no longer work a job, and took so much time to get it, their conditions deteriorated. Many women and men for different conditions are forced to go private and pay for treatment because NHS is slow, difficult, incompetent in an area, or won't do it. Women with health issues who wanted hysterectomy, the same things. Takes years if it even happens. Is there any need for these false comparisons? Same with the comment about abortion for under 16 vs puberty blockers, and menopausal women having HRT vs using hormones to transition sex. This was poorly thought out, uninformed, and offensive pitting themselves against women. A lot of this statement sounds ignorant, hateful and demeaning towards women. And a false picture is being painted where everyone, except for trans people, are getting great on demand treatment from the NHS, no assessment, no waiting, everything we want and NEED immediately. can't demand any prescription treatment or surgery or test. Even minor drugs. Doctor makes assessment of you and prescribes, or suggest treatment. You go ahead with their recommendation with informed consent about risk/benefit. That's what informed consent is. And GP/GP doesn't make treatment decisions and handle treatment in specialised areas... lol I've spent hours in hospitals at endocrinologists just for my hyperactive thyroid, for stuff that I wonder why GP couldn't do it. I don't think a transition can happen from a GP office? Women with long term female health conditions don't really get great care from my experience. I've felt like if you're not dying they don't care. Mayb e we should say we'll die if we don't get what we need. Do I need to mention women with cervical cancer symptoms who have died because doctors thought they were too young to get tested? Not just women, men and women have died or have advanced cancers because their cancer symptoms were dismissed and not even tested/referred for testing, even despite going back to doctor repeatedly. Anyway...

Also falsely representing the UK debate about this having anything to do with "religious extremists" , when it's absolutely not at all. And as we know is mainly left wing women, gender critical feminists who care about women and girls, (and gender non conforming boys). We're "antifeminists"? I also would like to know where this has been printed, "printed without criticism alongside calls to have us "cured" with conversion therapy", which UK "Overworked journalists" or publications have printed this? And when have any of us called for that?

Also, labelling as "anti-Semitic conspiracy theory", the truth of groups like Stnewall, Mermids and GI lobbying the government, politicians, universities (and many other places)??!

And I just want to put this here, since the claim is that UK and NHS is so awful, offering all of this for free:

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/

NHS referrals for lots of things have waiting lists. Speed the time up, but apparently that's not enough... it has to be immediately whatever they want on demand, no assessment from professionals, because they think we get that kind of treatment, we don't. And they think things they're talking about are equivalent, they're not.

Btw, "everyone else" does not self-ID themselves as M of F . Our sex is observed and recorded at birth. And gender is bs, social constructed and conditioned forced upon us due to our sex.

Also would like to see the evidence for these claims, UK data please:

"Trans people, especially trans people of colour, are hit hardest by unemployment, homelessness, and domestic, sexual , and police violence, but the conversation always focuses on wealthy white cis women tweeting about toilets"

This part too.. "wealthy white cis women tweeting about toilets", just... Lol, really ?

Who exactly is this supposed to be a dig at "In my view feminism isn't a tea party with the Queen or a girlboss brunch with #femspirational CEOs" ?

And ?? :
"That said, "equal rights" won't fix the poverty, criminalisation, surveillance, and state violence facing all those who work for a living rather than own property and capital. Trans equality must be part of a huge redistribution of power and resources so society serves human instead of profit."

There's a banned word in that post. Many women do not identify as 'c**' and find that an offensive term.

I think you're missing much of the point of this thread.

Healthcare prioritisation reflects society. Female healthcare, overall, suffers from underfunding and a lack of understanding of women's distinct issues. In terms of health, MTF trans people and women are not a coherent group. It's better than FTM trans people and women are grouped together in terms of provision. Or FTM trans people as a subgroup of the female population.

Except that Abigail used her platform to sow false ideas to further hatred of women.
The people on here are correcting those misconceptions and are understandably a bit miffed at how Abigail took a personal decision and used it to further the erosion of women. It's very telling you think telling our own stories and truth is the same thing.
And we are women not cis. I do not identify into my oppression. I am not glitter and heels. Cis is banned on Mumsnet.

AllCats, did you read Abigail’s post? If you didn’t pick up all the fake facts (I’m politely accepting these may have been mistakes, due to ignorance and lack of research, rather than deliberate lies), you really need to read all the comments on this thread correcting them.

Buffster, good point about the taboo on women’s health. These new demands by TW will be one more reason for sidelining women’s health needs. We don’t shout loudly enough or threaten suicide (implicit in Abigail’s claim that TW die waiting for hormone treatment).

Namechange, thanks for posting. I’m sorry you’ve had such a struggle. I hope you’re comfortable with where you’re at now.

On rereading I just spotted this little nugget.
Trans people, especially trans people of colour, are hit hardest by unemployment, homelessness, and domestic, sexual , and police violence,
Does anyone know any stats that could prove or disprove these claims? Extraordinary claims to make when I think it is mostly accepted that*

Unemployment is pretty much sweeping the board with Covid.

Homelessness is said to largely affect men in overwhelmingly numbers (although homelessness in women is often coupled with abuse, coercive control)this has links with substance abuse and emotional stunting courtesy of the patriarchy.

Domestic violence still overwhelmingly effects women by sheer numbers.

Police violence overwhelmingly effects black males by sheer numbers.

It's simply untruthful to present these as fact when the statistics simply don't back it up.

@TheBuffster
No, there are no statistics that back up Abigails list there. It seems to have been cut and pasted from a BLM tweet as an afterthought.

The only way I couldn't see someone believing these people are most vulnerable is that is by imagining all these factors to pull together on one person.

A disabled, trans, black person.

But that's playing the who's most oppressed game and isn't helpful for anyone. Because these factors can also pull together on other groups.

Disabled, black, lesbian.

I just feel like the inclusion of the example of a black person is there to signal victimhood. I'm just not comfortable with black people being used in this way by a white person. Perhaps it's because they're exporting data from South America but I find it very odd nestled in their own personal journey.

And if they genuinely did care about minorities then why is the way tra ideology impacts the freedom of Muslim women always treated with contempt?

I just find it odd that a white person would include this on their coming out status, as it hasn't really got much to do with their personal plight and seems an odd appropriation.

@PlanDeRaccordement I thought Twitter was cracking down on fake news after Trump's various tweets?

I realise that policing truth on every tweet is a big task, but this tweet has obviously gone viral so surely needs fact checking from that aspect alone?

I imagine some replies may have supplied correct data but surely Twitter should take a hand in it too?

@TheBuffster
Agree it’s about claiming membership in a victim club. And yes, Abigail is definitely appropriating from black and other minority groups (disabled, LGB, etc). She probably thinks she’s being an ally to and speaking out for disabled trans black people, but really she’s over-stepping and her post is just a confused litany of oppression markers that she has cut and paste from elsewhere with zero critical thinking done.

@TheBuffster
Yes thought Twitter was cracking down on fake news, but not sure that even applies to opinion pieces like this? The tweet isn’t really news per se, it’s Abigails (warped) perceptions and opinions.

Yes, it's just packed with misconceptions so I thought that should be tackled. I'm sure the NHS for one won't be happy at some of the content.

I am too old to be a tuber. I must say though, it looks quite tempting. This reads, to me, like a disorganised stream of consciousness and yet seems to being hailed as some sort of freedom speech. I'm sure it's meant to be genuine but I'd personally be embarrassed to send this out into the world without a good edit. I don't have a philosophy degree but I'm pretty sure I could cobble something semi coherent if I came out as a woman.

It's probably good I'm not on twitter. Seeing what I consider unpolished rhetoric would really annoy me.

I'd just like to say I'm sure Abigail tried her best on this, but could have done with an edit by a good friend or academic.

The sad thing is, if Abigail had kept to her own personal experience as mostly written in the first paragraph it'd be a nice, personal message full of positivity that I could deeply admire.

The bolt on victimhood and dubious facts detract from the beauty and simplicity of what I think she is trying to say.

But then I suspect the aim of Twitter is to reach as many people as possible and a sweet, vulnerable request for acceptance wouldn't get the same audience.

@NameChange7677 Thank you for sharing such an experience that is and was so distressing for you. Sending very best wishes.

Biological men go nuts when they aren't the main focus of everyone all the time.
Women have been progressing rapidly, and it's causing men to act out of desperation, going overboard to the point of being transparent and looking silly.

Maybe I'm too optimistic but I see much of the clamp down on women lately as a backlash, that will eventually fail like so many of their other plans to keep us down.

We just have to stay hopeful and keep fighting back.

@NameChange7677 thanks for writing all that up. I have had a very similar experience with HCP over the years with similar issues. I paid for electrolysis out of my own pocket and didn't get anywhere with spironolactone, that conversation was shut down immediately. Hang in there with the rogaine, it takes a while to see an effect x

Women's healthcare needs get overlooked and dismissed as a matter of course. How utterly insulting of Abigail to suggest otherwise.

To be fair not all men are like that. (Sorry, I don't mean it as a not all men cliche!)
DH watched terf wars with me yesterday. Was very uncomfortable viewing for him as how men as a group behave.
He recognises the problematic behaviour but doesn't take part in it himself. He's a good feminist ally as many men have the capability to be.

... steamed my cheese..

Ew.

"No party has equal rights as a policy goal."

What does this mean?!

What equal rights are they referring to? Everyone is protected under the equality act. If by equal rights does Abigail mean "I want to remove any sex based exemptions under the equality act for females..." or is it something which won't impact upon women's rights?

I did watch Abigail's YouTube reveal video. I watched the King Critical commentary video, who noted that Abigail appears to also "identify as a philosopher" as the philosophical arguments put forward by what it meant to literally become the sex you identify as were... Limited.

NameChange7677 thank you for your message and insights. I have had so many accounts of women not being able to get treatment on the NHS for things which were really impacting upon their mental health (often gynaecological, but also treatment for PTSD and PPD) that it irked me a bit reading Abigail's announcement which seemed to say "look, c*s women have it so easy"

Also Abigail had the privilege of going to what sounds like a private all boys school.

"Agree it’s about claiming membership in a victim club. And yes, Abigail is definitely appropriating from black and other minority groups"

Yes, and Abigail is appropriating these groups against those awful bad "wealthy white cs women", who are allegedly (according to Abigail and others who lie) the only women who have concerns (and according to Abigail their only concern is toilets) and the only ones not fully supportive and accepting of all of the trans stuff. The oppressors of everyone, including Abigail now. Abigail has also appropriated women's struggles, including historical, Suffragettes, and lining themself up with them, against us alleged "antifeminists". Seems Abigail is trying to collect everyone to join up against us baddies. "Wealthy white cs women" is seen as a bad thing, that's why Abigail is smearing us all as that.

Abigail also attempted to do this victimhood appropriation and manipulation with this bizarre claim about antisemitism, "Overworked journalists..." being fed "pseudoscience and fear mongering" and printing "Antisemitic conspiracy theories about a mythical "trans lobby" controlling universities or government are printed without criticism".

Trans lobby groups exist. Fact. They are not mythical. They are not Jewish. Stonewall, Mermaids, Gendered Intelligence and others. They are very active in lobbying and 'training' politicians, universities, schools, public services, police, large corporations, other businesses, etc, everywhere. It is documented, even in video. They're not really that shy about it. It's one of their stated purposes of existence! They are not Jewish groups. They are nothing to do with Jewish people. This is nothing to do with Jewish people. It is not antisemitic to talk about these lobby groups and what they do. There is nothing antisemitic about talking about lobby groups when it is known that they exist, and that's one of their stated purposes! And especially when they're not Jewish and it's nothing to do with Jewish people. Wtf. Unbelievable we're being accused of conspiracy theories, antisemitic conspiracy theories about the existence of trans lobby groups??

So stupid. Not every mention of "lobby groups" is antisemitic conspiracy theory. It is well known lobbying happens, lobby groups exist for lots of things, and it's expected and fine. If anyone said "Jewish lobby groups controlling universities or government", or utter crap about this trans thing being a Jewish plot or the trans lobby groups being a front for a Jewish plot, then yeah of course it would be highly antisemitic, continuing from old antisemitic tropes. I've never seen that or anything antisemitic on this topic or in this debate, neither here on mumsnet, on social media, or any other media. Where exactly has this been printed? Since Abigail is talking about "overworked jounalists" being fed and printing these things - which journalists, which publications? Abigail is clearly just trying to smear us. If there is anything of that nature from those of far-right-wing conspiracy theory types in USA on Twitter or wherever, it's nothing to do with us, and nothing to do with Britain or the debate here. Abigail is in Britain and according to Abigail's statement is supposed to be talking about Britain. To claim that antisemitism is a feature of the debate is a complete and utter lie and smear. To claim that talking about trans lobby groups is antisemitic conspiracy theory is a complete and utter lie and smear. Abigail has said other things that don't apply to the debate in Britain too, such as "religious extremists" remark. Is Abigail trying to smear us all so that nobody listens to us about anything, so everyone distances from us, and make us stop talking about and responding to trans lobby groups, by calling mention of them "mythical" and "antisemitic conspiracy"?

I've seen Jewish women on Twitter annoyed and offended with Abigail's remark, for example in this thread by an activist against antisemitism that was being shared on Twitter yesterday:
"Lie no.5) "Antisemitic conspiracy theories about a mythical "trans lobby" controlling universities or government are printed without criticism"
Transpeople are Jews now? Really? Really?! I don't even know what to say to this nonsense it is so offensive & narcissistic."
mobile.twitter.com/jobellerina/status/1355875102399881221
Joanne actually accuses Abigail of being antisemitic here.
"I am glad this person has decided to live their life the way they feel is right for them. What they are not entitled to do is lie repeatedly and be antisemitic while doing it."
mobile.twitter.com/jobellerina/status/1355875084217548802

Sorry I haven't read full thread, but I have highlighted another myth frequently put forward by gender ideologists which is claimed by Abigail.

Trans people have existed for as long as there has been a Britain (longer!)

Well, basically, no.

Not really unless you prescribe all gender non-conforming people since forever as trans, which feminists tend to disagree with.Present however you want it's cool, but Boy George etc is not female.

Sex reassignment surgery and cosmetic surgery has only existed for a short amount of time, so the "true transsexual" in the western sense has only existed since that has been possible. Not a very long time.

In other cultures where males who are effeminate etc are known as a certain group, eg Kathoey in Thailand, Hijras in India, you might argue have always existed since the dawn of time.

These people all of whom are males who prefer to live performing femininity, have indeed always existed but the key difference here is that these males are not and never have considered themselves to be actually women, the same as women or anything like women. These groups of trans gendered people have a specific space carved out especially for them in the society that they exist in. They have their own name and own place in the world as a group.

The Abigails of today, born male, raised male, fully intact male, think they can say "I'm a woman just like you" with no consideration for the differences between them and women. This type of transwomen has existed for a very short time period Indeed.

I don’t get it.
We live in the era of hysterical callout culture, where a ‘wrong’ or just badly worded opinion can results in a torrent of hate filled abuse rained down on you from oh so kind people, yet somehow the empress’s new clothes are made of Teflon, you can say what the hell you like no matter how appalling and you’re just stunning, brave and deserving of All The Things.
Just where is the tipping point? How much obvious crap do some people have to spout, how appallingly do they have to behave, before the scales fall from ‘kind’ people’s eyes and they notice that there’s so many red flags it may as well be bunting?

Abigail and Abigails obvious privileges can get to fuck. There are millions of people in this world who need a voice - disabled people, poor people, carers, the list is endless, they are the people who need support and help and people championing for them.

And feminism needs to centre females, otherwise it’s fucking pointless.

100 posts. I call deletion before 250.
I stake my pronouns on it.