Can we discuss this without it getting deleted?

[HeadPain]

Thread has gone because some posts within it allegedly broke the rules. Can we discuss this without breaking the rules? It's important. It's false information, and false representation about the UK, the NHS, and about us, and women and our healthcare and lives in general. Also offensive to women, and making false equivalence and false inferrences. It's in the media, trending on twitter, liked over 200,000 times, shared tens of thousands of times...

mobile.twitter.com/PhilosophyTube/status/1355577911949070341

"Hello friends! I'm delighted to say I'm a trans woman; my name is Abigail and you can refer to me with she/her.

Thank you to everyone who kept my secret for such a long time as I prepared to come out publicly! I'm excited to continue my acting career and Philosophy Tube. Please respect my privacy and treat everyone with kindness and patience, even those who don't treat me kindly. It's so lovely to finally relax, to sleep well with sweet dreams and be at home in myself! But I'm also scared. Things are very, very bad for trans people in the UK and they're getting worse. My existing following means I have now instantly become one of the most recognisable transgender people in the country and I feel an enormous pressure to be "good at it", like if I could only be clever enough, or pretty or funny or articulate enough, things would magically come right! Alas, I can't be a perfect paragon of trans Britain, I'm just an actress, but I can relay the following facts:

Trans people have existed for as long as there has been a Britain (longer!) But even after a century of feminism the government still dictates what we may do with our own bodies. The NHS is forced by outdated rules to discriminate against us: if a cisgender (ie. Not trans) woman wants hormone replacement therapy for menopause she can get it from the GP, but if a trans person needs it to transition we have to travel to a separate clinic and be interrogated by psychiatrists. Because of this discrimination waiting lists are several years long. Women like me die waiting for the exact same medicines that bald men get from the GP to treat hair loss. Trans men die waiting for breast reduction surgery that cis women get for back pain. In England and Wales people under 16 can get an abortion, which is permanent, but trans children can't get life saving puberty blockers, which are reversible. Some politicians promise to reduce waiting times , but that's not equality; it's just more efficient discrimination. We don't have equal legal rights either. Cis people can use their passport as proof of ID when they get married or adopt children, but we can't - even though my passport says 'F' for Female i'd have to beg the government's permission to become a wife or mother. There has never been a trans MP , member of the House of Lords , MSP, MS, or MLA. No party has equal rights as a policy goal. Trans people, especially trans people of colour, are hit hardest by unemployment, homelessness, and domestic, sexual , and police violence, but the conversation always focuses on wealthy white cis women tweeting about toilets. Overworked journalists often don't know much about our lives, so antifeminists and religious extremists feed them pseudoscience and fear mongering. Antisemitic conspiracy theories about a mythical "trans lobby" controlling universities or government are printed without criticism alongside calls to have us "cured" with conversion therapy, which, shockingly, is still legal. Well-meaning folks worry about embarrassing themselves by 'saying the wrong thing', so they never speak up to help us. Like Suffragettes and black civil rights movements before us we are told to watch our tone lest the people denying us the means to live get hurt feelings.

I might only be an actress, but as a feminist I can't submit to civic inferiority or give up control of my body. In my view feminism isn't a tea party with the Queen or a girlboss brunch with #femspirational CEOs, it's our common struggle to be free. Today i'd like to add my voice to the many demanding new legislation for trans equal rights: an informed consent system of medical transition and a self-ID system of legal transition for all who desire it, including nonbinary people. Everyone else in Britain already gets their healthcare and gendered services that way; surely it's only fair that we should to? In my mind there's no question about it, just as there was no legitimate "debate" about whether to give gay and lesbian people equal rights; we don't "cancel" or "silence" Flat Earthers when we set aside their concerns about space travel and start listening to cosmonauts! That said, "equal rights" won't fix the poverty, criminalisation, surveillance, and state violence facing all those who work for a living rather than own property and capital. Trans equality must be part of a huge redistribution of power and resources so society serves human instead of profit. I hope that someday soon people of all ages realise that being trans is perfectly normal. Like all human beings we are inherently valuable and entitled to self -determination, and if that makes others upset then it's only because they're choosing not to live in reality. These are scary times, but "courage calls to courage everywhere and its voice cannot be denied." Even when other people make it hard, being trans is a gift. My love goes out to every trans person reading my words in Britain or overseas, especially those who can't come out - yet!

This above all: to think own self be true, and it must follow, as night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man!

Abigail XXx "

I am angry about this flippant remark about women: "Trans men die waiting for breast reduction surgery that cis women get for back pain." First it sounds minimising of the pain and conditions of women who need breast reduction, nerve , spinal issues. Trans people die, we just get back pain. Abigail really thinks women can just walk in to the G P and demand breast reduction (or mastectomy, since Abigail is comparing it to trans men surgery) and get it no questions asked? And the G P decides it? or they refer to a specialist immediately? Many have commented that the NHS refused to do breast reduction for them despite suffering with debilitating pain and conditions, and women who did get the NHS to do it wasn't easy and instant, having to wait and repeatedly ask to be refered, wait months to see different hospital consultants, different areas of medicine, prove their case, for example that they can no longer work a job, and took so much time to get it, their conditions deteriorated. Many women and men for different conditions are forced to go private and pay for treatment because NHS is slow, difficult, incompetent in an area, or won't do it. Women with health issues who wanted hysterectomy, the same things. Takes years if it even happens. Is there any need for these false comparisons? Same with the comment about abortion for under 16 vs puberty blockers, and menopausal women having HRT vs using hormones to transition sex. This was poorly thought out, uninformed, and offensive pitting themselves against women. A lot of this statement sounds ignorant, hateful and demeaning towards women. And a false picture is being painted where everyone, except for trans people, are getting great on demand treatment from the NHS, no assessment, no waiting, everything we want and NEED immediately. can't demand any prescription treatment or surgery or test. Even minor drugs. Doctor makes assessment of you and prescribes, or suggest treatment. You go ahead with their recommendation with informed consent about risk/benefit. That's what informed consent is. And GP/GP doesn't make treatment decisions and handle treatment in specialised areas... lol I've spent hours in hospitals at endocrinologists just for my hyperactive thyroid, for stuff that I wonder why GP couldn't do it. I don't think a transition can happen from a GP office? Women with long term female health conditions don't really get great care from my experience. I've felt like if you're not dying they don't care. Mayb e we should say we'll die if we don't get what we need. Do I need to mention women with cervical cancer symptoms who have died because doctors thought they were too young to get tested? Not just women, men and women have died or have advanced cancers because their cancer symptoms were dismissed and not even tested/referred for testing, even despite going back to doctor repeatedly. Anyway...

Also falsely representing the UK debate about this having anything to do with "religious extremists" , when it's absolutely not at all. And as we know is mainly left wing women, gender critical feminists who care about women and girls, (and gender non conforming boys). We're "antifeminists"? I also would like to know where this has been printed, "printed without criticism alongside calls to have us "cured" with conversion therapy", which UK "Overworked journalists" or publications have printed this? And when have any of us called for that?

Also, labelling as "anti-Semitic conspiracy theory", the truth of groups like Stnewall, Mermids and GI lobbying the government, politicians, universities (and many other places)??!

And I just want to put this here, since the claim is that UK and NHS is so awful, offering all of this for free:

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/

NHS referrals for lots of things have waiting lists. Speed the time up, but apparently that's not enough... it has to be immediately whatever they want on demand, no assessment from professionals, because they think we get that kind of treatment, we don't. And they think things they're talking about are equivalent, they're not.

Btw, "everyone else" does not self-ID themselves as M of F . Our sex is observed and recorded at birth. And gender is bs, social constructed and conditioned forced upon us due to our sex.

Also would like to see the evidence for these claims, UK data please:

"Trans people, especially trans people of colour, are hit hardest by unemployment, homelessness, and domestic, sexual , and police violence, but the conversation always focuses on wealthy white cis women tweeting about toilets"

This part too.. "wealthy white cis women tweeting about toilets", just... Lol, really ?

Who exactly is this supposed to be a dig at "In my view feminism isn't a tea party with the Queen or a girlboss brunch with #femspirational CEOs" ?

And ?? :
"That said, "equal rights" won't fix the poverty, criminalisation, surveillance, and state violence facing all those who work for a living rather than own property and capital. Trans equality must be part of a huge redistribution of power and resources so society serves human instead of profit."

Also falsely representing the UK debate about this having anything to do with "religious extremists" , when it's absolutely not at all. And as we know is mainly left wing women

Thorn is playing to the gallery in the US, where there is a different dynamic in society, where the religious right is powerful and the trans issue is mostly seen as unequivocally progressive in the media. It's a complete misrepresentation of the U.K situation, obviously. I feel this was deliberate.

I don't 'get' that at all, why do they die? How does having breasts cause death?

We're supposed to believe that they are likely to kill themselves.

if a cisgender (ie. Not trans) woman wants hormone replacement therapy for menopause she can get it from the GP, but if a trans person needs it to transition we have to travel to a separate clinic and be interrogated by psychiatrists. Because of this discrimination waiting lists are several years long

Abigail is being very disingenuous there. There is ‘discrimination’ because they’re very different circumstances. A menopausal woman is looking to replace the diminished hormones that have occurred because of the natural process of menopause. A trans woman wants cross-sex hormones because of possible gender dysphoria. That’s why the psych is involved.

The hormones might be the same but the reason for prescribing them and the person they’re being prescribed to are very different.

Feminism is to help natal women. The fact that Abigail and other trans women might also struggle is sad and I sympathise, but feminism isn’t an umbrella for every person in need. It exists for women - that is female people not males. Males, however they identify, might also need support but they should be getting that from elsewhere.

The thinking is the same as the hormone thinking. Yes, same hormone but different person/situation. Yes, struggling too, but for a different reason as part of a different group.

Also it's not "breast reduction" they want is it? It's elective double mastectomy, and surgeons are busy with urgent cancer patients.

I imagine they die via suicide.
A bit like how lots of mums are vulnerable with pnd due to long waiting lists for mental help.

Note that the woman merely "wants" HRT for such a trifling thing as menopause, while the MTF "needs" it.

I imagine they die via suicide.

I imagine, as most of them are very young and CYP suicides are relatively rare in the U.K., that this is a massively exaggerated risk. Like many TRA claims.

Sorry but to claim that there is an anti Semitic theory going around about the ‘trans lobby’ is absolutely appalling and irresponsible. I haven’t seen this anywhere else so my sincere apologies if this wasn’t made up by Abigail but came from elsewhere and Abigail has merely repeated it. But what evidence is there for this? How absolutely insulting to actual victims of anti Semitic prejudice and abuse if this doesn’t actually have any substance.

And there is a ‘lobby’- that’s what advocacy charities and groups do- they lobby for their cause. Nothing wrong with saying that or doing that. That’s what they are employing people to do, campaign for the change they want to see, and are raising money for. That has nothing to do with prejudice against anyone’s religion to say that they lobby. It’s just fact.

Suffragettes and black civil rights advocates were not just told to ‘watch their tone’ they were harassed, outlawed, imprisoned, abused, separated from their children. Where’s the equivalence..?

Puberty blockers are not reversible back to pre-puberty blocker state, they have possibly permanent effects on the child physically and they make it almost inevitable that they will take cross-sex hormones, they are not ‘life saving’, death is not the result of not having them, puberty blockers are not even shown to be effective at what they say they are for, reducing feelings of dysphoria. Equally not giving immediate access to cross-sex hormones and/or double mastectomies does not result in death. Distress yes, certainly for some people, and we can all agree that mental health support for everyone who needs it, in all sorts of situations- related to gender or anything else- must be improved.

The irresponsible talk about death and the seeming subtext around suicide being related to single factors is just really awful though.

This part too.. "wealthy white cis women tweeting about toilets", just... Lol, really ?

To be fair though, Mumsnet is mostly filled with this sort of people obsessed with toilets rather than feminist ideals of equality and smash the patriarchy. Not sure what they think is going to happen - I don't observe a lot of real incidents.

Good on Abigail for declaring herself, so more debate can be had! It's the stealthy ones that you never know are in the toilets. :)

There is a specific national clinical audit programme which looks at children and young people's suicide rates. There is little evidence other than anecdotal from Mermaids etc that being trans is a main driver.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Note that the woman merely "wants" HRT for such a trifling thing as menopause, while the MTF "needs" it.

Not everyone 'wants' or 'needs' HRT for menopausal symptoms, plenty don't have it. A male to female trans does not need HRT all of a rush, they can wait if people who can barely walk have to wait for hip and knee replacements.

"There has never been a trans MP , member of the House of Lords , MSP, MS, or MLA"
A quick Google led me to discover Edward Hyde, a 17th century MP believed to be transgender.

Sorry but to claim that there is an anti Semitic theory going around about the ‘trans lobby’ is absolutely appalling and irresponsible.

They mean because Soros' Open Society Foundation is a major funder, I imagine. And I think there is a big funder who is MTF in the US, I have no idea if they are Jewish but Ive seen the same accusation. Criticising individual billionaires and what they do with their pots of cash is of course antisemitic.

I don’t think we can discuss it either. I have no idea why other thread ended up deleted. But the thing that struck me is this trans woman is essentially complaining about being treated like a woman. So, yes there is discrimination, because that is how women are treated even today. So I’m a bit confused why Abigail seems to pitching trans women against biological women? We are in the same boat, and treated with same disdain.

Not everyone 'wants' or 'needs' HRT for menopausal symptoms, plenty don't have it.

I didn't say they did, I just found the phrasing rather dismissive on Thorn's part.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I imagine they die via suicide.

I imagine, as most of them are very young and CYP suicides are relatively rare in the U.K., that this is a massively exaggerated risk. Like many TRA claims.

In addition, numerous scientific studies have shown that trans people who have transitioned have a 19x higher risk of suicide than trans people who do not transition. The suicide epidemic isn’t caused by the usual NHS waiting list for everything, it happens after transition gender surgery possibly due to lack of post-operative support. Suicide before is less frequent and a lot rarer.

BreatheAndFocus Sun 31-Jan-21 17:04:07
if a cisgender (ie. Not trans) woman wants hormone replacement therapy for menopause she can get it from the GP, but if a trans person needs it to transition we have to travel to a separate clinic and be interrogated by psychiatrists. Because of this discrimination waiting lists are several years long
...
Not unreasonable for psychiatrists to be involved when you consider the number of trans-women who regret their transition later on. Transitioning is a complicated business which requires a great deal of care from start to finish.

They would hardly be going to the same clinic as biological women because 1. They are not biological women and never will be & 2. their entire collection of complex needs is quite different with no one aspect of it treated in isolation.

Bio women are often prescribed HRT by their GP anyway, they don't automatically go to a hospital clinic.

Transitioning is a complicated business which requires a great deal of care from start to finish.

They would hardly be going to the same clinic as biological women because 1. They are not biological women and never will be & 2. their entire collection of complex needs is quite different with no one aspect of it treated in isolation.

Agree with this.

I'm a little confused about what she is not happy about, surely transgender clinics and specialists in transgender psychiatric evaluations are good? Catered specifically to their needs? The NHS is on it's knees, and as PP have said, is more preoccupied with urgent and terminal conditions, but everyone has to jump through hoops for referrals and the like. That isn't discrimination against trans people, surely?

this sort of people obsessed with toilets

You mean female people concerned about other female people who may be excluded from any public toilet facility so that male people can take their preferred choice from all the available ones? The female people whose faith or disability or history of rape/assault/domestic violence may mean they cannot use a mixed sex space? The female people who may end up back in the Victorian era of the sex based bladder leash so that male people may be happier and freer in their choices and self actualisation?

Those 'sort' of people?

Gosh totally the wrong sort of people. Must never have them to dinner, quite below us. Obvs. Imagine caring about vulnerable females and rampantly sexist policy, what sillies they are.

I find the focus on suicide very uncomfortable when the Samaritans have repeatedly said reporting suicide statistics like this actually increases suicide rates.
Suicide is very serious and should not be used as a ultimatum.

As PPs have said, feminism protects the interests of human beings of the female sex. That was what the suffragettes all had in common - effeminate gay men still got to vote I believe, and butch women did not. Why would transwomen feel that they should be a part of feminism (beyond supporting it, as many males do)?

It always comes down to the simple demand that there MUST NOT EVER BE a demarcated group, or a specific noun, or even a word in the dictionary, that denotes the human female sex (plus or minus nothing).

@Ereshkigalangcleg

There is a specific national clinical audit programme which looks at children and young people's suicide rates. There is little evidence other than anecdotal from Mermaids etc that being trans is a main driver.

That's interesting. Although very irresponsible of mermaids etc to suggest it as it plants a seed in vulnerable people's minds.

Of course, being an attention-seeking tube, Abigail will be using these threads as fodder for their next video no doubt. They will gun for us obviously and not that other forum mainly populated by Male, antipodean agricultural labourers - because ‘free speech’ and all that...

Another thing that I keep pondering was Abigail's statement "I might only be an actress..."
I still can't get my head around the fact this person is apparently an "actress" and a philosopher and yet this was the best speech they could come up with for what was clearly their fifteen minutes of fame?