Can we discuss this without it getting deleted?

[HeadPain]

Thread has gone because some posts within it allegedly broke the rules. Can we discuss this without breaking the rules? It's important. It's false information, and false representation about the UK, the NHS, and about us, and women and our healthcare and lives in general. Also offensive to women, and making false equivalence and false inferrences. It's in the media, trending on twitter, liked over 200,000 times, shared tens of thousands of times...

mobile.twitter.com/PhilosophyTube/status/1355577911949070341

"Hello friends! I'm delighted to say I'm a trans woman; my name is Abigail and you can refer to me with she/her.

Thank you to everyone who kept my secret for such a long time as I prepared to come out publicly! I'm excited to continue my acting career and Philosophy Tube. Please respect my privacy and treat everyone with kindness and patience, even those who don't treat me kindly. It's so lovely to finally relax, to sleep well with sweet dreams and be at home in myself! But I'm also scared. Things are very, very bad for trans people in the UK and they're getting worse. My existing following means I have now instantly become one of the most recognisable transgender people in the country and I feel an enormous pressure to be "good at it", like if I could only be clever enough, or pretty or funny or articulate enough, things would magically come right! Alas, I can't be a perfect paragon of trans Britain, I'm just an actress, but I can relay the following facts:

Trans people have existed for as long as there has been a Britain (longer!) But even after a century of feminism the government still dictates what we may do with our own bodies. The NHS is forced by outdated rules to discriminate against us: if a cisgender (ie. Not trans) woman wants hormone replacement therapy for menopause she can get it from the GP, but if a trans person needs it to transition we have to travel to a separate clinic and be interrogated by psychiatrists. Because of this discrimination waiting lists are several years long. Women like me die waiting for the exact same medicines that bald men get from the GP to treat hair loss. Trans men die waiting for breast reduction surgery that cis women get for back pain. In England and Wales people under 16 can get an abortion, which is permanent, but trans children can't get life saving puberty blockers, which are reversible. Some politicians promise to reduce waiting times , but that's not equality; it's just more efficient discrimination. We don't have equal legal rights either. Cis people can use their passport as proof of ID when they get married or adopt children, but we can't - even though my passport says 'F' for Female i'd have to beg the government's permission to become a wife or mother. There has never been a trans MP , member of the House of Lords , MSP, MS, or MLA. No party has equal rights as a policy goal. Trans people, especially trans people of colour, are hit hardest by unemployment, homelessness, and domestic, sexual , and police violence, but the conversation always focuses on wealthy white cis women tweeting about toilets. Overworked journalists often don't know much about our lives, so antifeminists and religious extremists feed them pseudoscience and fear mongering. Antisemitic conspiracy theories about a mythical "trans lobby" controlling universities or government are printed without criticism alongside calls to have us "cured" with conversion therapy, which, shockingly, is still legal. Well-meaning folks worry about embarrassing themselves by 'saying the wrong thing', so they never speak up to help us. Like Suffragettes and black civil rights movements before us we are told to watch our tone lest the people denying us the means to live get hurt feelings.

I might only be an actress, but as a feminist I can't submit to civic inferiority or give up control of my body. In my view feminism isn't a tea party with the Queen or a girlboss brunch with #femspirational CEOs, it's our common struggle to be free. Today i'd like to add my voice to the many demanding new legislation for trans equal rights: an informed consent system of medical transition and a self-ID system of legal transition for all who desire it, including nonbinary people. Everyone else in Britain already gets their healthcare and gendered services that way; surely it's only fair that we should to? In my mind there's no question about it, just as there was no legitimate "debate" about whether to give gay and lesbian people equal rights; we don't "cancel" or "silence" Flat Earthers when we set aside their concerns about space travel and start listening to cosmonauts! That said, "equal rights" won't fix the poverty, criminalisation, surveillance, and state violence facing all those who work for a living rather than own property and capital. Trans equality must be part of a huge redistribution of power and resources so society serves human instead of profit. I hope that someday soon people of all ages realise that being trans is perfectly normal. Like all human beings we are inherently valuable and entitled to self -determination, and if that makes others upset then it's only because they're choosing not to live in reality. These are scary times, but "courage calls to courage everywhere and its voice cannot be denied." Even when other people make it hard, being trans is a gift. My love goes out to every trans person reading my words in Britain or overseas, especially those who can't come out - yet!

This above all: to think own self be true, and it must follow, as night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man!

Abigail XXx "

I am angry about this flippant remark about women: "Trans men die waiting for breast reduction surgery that cis women get for back pain." First it sounds minimising of the pain and conditions of women who need breast reduction, nerve , spinal issues. Trans people die, we just get back pain. Abigail really thinks women can just walk in to the G P and demand breast reduction (or mastectomy, since Abigail is comparing it to trans men surgery) and get it no questions asked? And the G P decides it? or they refer to a specialist immediately? Many have commented that the NHS refused to do breast reduction for them despite suffering with debilitating pain and conditions, and women who did get the NHS to do it wasn't easy and instant, having to wait and repeatedly ask to be refered, wait months to see different hospital consultants, different areas of medicine, prove their case, for example that they can no longer work a job, and took so much time to get it, their conditions deteriorated. Many women and men for different conditions are forced to go private and pay for treatment because NHS is slow, difficult, incompetent in an area, or won't do it. Women with health issues who wanted hysterectomy, the same things. Takes years if it even happens. Is there any need for these false comparisons? Same with the comment about abortion for under 16 vs puberty blockers, and menopausal women having HRT vs using hormones to transition sex. This was poorly thought out, uninformed, and offensive pitting themselves against women. A lot of this statement sounds ignorant, hateful and demeaning towards women. And a false picture is being painted where everyone, except for trans people, are getting great on demand treatment from the NHS, no assessment, no waiting, everything we want and NEED immediately. can't demand any prescription treatment or surgery or test. Even minor drugs. Doctor makes assessment of you and prescribes, or suggest treatment. You go ahead with their recommendation with informed consent about risk/benefit. That's what informed consent is. And GP/GP doesn't make treatment decisions and handle treatment in specialised areas... lol I've spent hours in hospitals at endocrinologists just for my hyperactive thyroid, for stuff that I wonder why GP couldn't do it. I don't think a transition can happen from a GP office? Women with long term female health conditions don't really get great care from my experience. I've felt like if you're not dying they don't care. Mayb e we should say we'll die if we don't get what we need. Do I need to mention women with cervical cancer symptoms who have died because doctors thought they were too young to get tested? Not just women, men and women have died or have advanced cancers because their cancer symptoms were dismissed and not even tested/referred for testing, even despite going back to doctor repeatedly. Anyway...

Also falsely representing the UK debate about this having anything to do with "religious extremists" , when it's absolutely not at all. And as we know is mainly left wing women, gender critical feminists who care about women and girls, (and gender non conforming boys). We're "antifeminists"? I also would like to know where this has been printed, "printed without criticism alongside calls to have us "cured" with conversion therapy", which UK "Overworked journalists" or publications have printed this? And when have any of us called for that?

Also, labelling as "anti-Semitic conspiracy theory", the truth of groups like Stnewall, Mermids and GI lobbying the government, politicians, universities (and many other places)??!

And I just want to put this here, since the claim is that UK and NHS is so awful, offering all of this for free:

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/

NHS referrals for lots of things have waiting lists. Speed the time up, but apparently that's not enough... it has to be immediately whatever they want on demand, no assessment from professionals, because they think we get that kind of treatment, we don't. And they think things they're talking about are equivalent, they're not.

Btw, "everyone else" does not self-ID themselves as M of F . Our sex is observed and recorded at birth. And gender is bs, social constructed and conditioned forced upon us due to our sex.

Also would like to see the evidence for these claims, UK data please:

"Trans people, especially trans people of colour, are hit hardest by unemployment, homelessness, and domestic, sexual , and police violence, but the conversation always focuses on wealthy white cis women tweeting about toilets"

This part too.. "wealthy white cis women tweeting about toilets", just... Lol, really ?

Who exactly is this supposed to be a dig at "In my view feminism isn't a tea party with the Queen or a girlboss brunch with #femspirational CEOs" ?

And ?? :
"That said, "equal rights" won't fix the poverty, criminalisation, surveillance, and state violence facing all those who work for a living rather than own property and capital. Trans equality must be part of a huge redistribution of power and resources so society serves human instead of profit."

@NotFabulousDarling

Another thing that I keep pondering was Abigail's statement "I might only be an actress..." I still can't get my head around the fact this person is apparently an "actress" and a philosopher and yet this was the best speech they could come up with for what was clearly their fifteen minutes of fame?

How retrograde of them to say "actress" in any case, I thought the modern term was "actor", or are only transwomen "actresses" now. Very telling.

To be fair, most actors don't strike me as super intelligent and they don't write their own speeches.
I have an actor friend who would kill me for that sweeping generalisation.
So I empathize the 'most'.

I got offered a breast reduction quite quickly due to another health issue I was having (that was not serious or preventative at all) but I'm being blocked from accessing healthcare to transition.

How retrograde of them to say "actress" in any case, I thought the modern term was "actor", or are only transwomen "actresses" now. Very telling.

Yes.

@Linearpark I was hoping to find a nice dictionary definition to that effect but OED is apparently subscription (in my line of work I usually use American English) and Cambridge dictionary had the stupidest definition of an actor, defining it only by synonyms.

@LokiOdinson was this recently?
Lots of treatment is on hold due to covid. Ds MRI was put back weeks and weeks.
The NHS is ridiculously slow normally without covid putting a spanner in the works. We are still waiting for results and have been told it could be at least 2 months of waiting. Son has cp so not exactly a less serious/priority either.
And your treatment will be further complicated by the mental health checks others have mentioned above. Again, as someone who waited 5 months with severe pnd for psychological help I understand the system is woefully inadequate, but it is for everyone not just you.

@TheBuffster very true, but hopefully most of them are not hams in the delivery.
In the words of Dara O'Briain, "Can someone get that ham off the stage?"

My colleague's breast cancer surgery recently got postponed. It's shit. But by.noe means unusual, unfortunately.

A close relative of mine recently died of cancer, which might have been treatable if she hadn’t had to wait months for tests delayed by the pandemic. So excuse me for not caring about the inconvenience an overstretched NHS is causing to Abigail.

I found the HRT comparison particularly offensive. I started menopause in my very early 40s and need the artificial hormones to prevent Osteoporisis and to have a semblance of the life I had before. To compare puberty blockers to this is beyond ridiculous.

None of the women I see on Twitter have ever called for conversion therapy, either.

@thinkingaboutLangCleg that's awful. Sorry for your loss.

@SunsetBeetch sorry your friend is going through that.
@Pinkfreesias sorry you had to go through that. It's not a trivial thing and to suggest it is shows lack of empathy and understanding.
I actually do hope Abigail comes on here for screen grabs, as the human side of all your stories would perhaps help her realise she's not the only human being to feel pain or sadness.
I think sometimes people forget we're all human in their race to be righteous.

Thanks, Buffster. It's all the other people in need of life-saving treatment too, not to mention the 100,000 deaths from Covid itself, in the UK alone. I can't get my head around people making such selfish demands.

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

Thanks, Buffster. It's all the other people in need of life-saving treatment too, not to mention the 100,000 deaths from Covid itself, in the UK alone. I can't get my head around people making such selfish demands.

I'm confused how it's selfish to want a better care system for all? The fact that people want support available for trans people doesn't mean they aren't also advocating for women's health and cancer patients? I find it pretty reductive to say "because you want this thing you must not care that other people are dying". Of course we do, and I regularly talk about how much more support is needed for the NHS to function as best as it can. I've been on a waiting list for nearly a year now for severe suicidal thoughts because the mental health support in my area is non-existent, am I selfish for wanting money put into that so I can feel less like offing myself?

The problem is @LokiOdinson that this thread started because women's health was dismissed as trivial, so surely you can understand why it gets people's backs up.
And at the moment there is a medical hierarchy. With cancer treatments and other vital treatments being cancelled sympathy is limited for less urgent treatments.
I'm very sorry you are feeling like that. What in particular about the surgery do you think would make your life better? Is there any other avenue of mental health support you can explore?

It's apparent to me that this person simultaneously:

1. Hates or at least resents women
2. Has no idea what it's like to live as a woman inhabiting a female body
3. Wants to be a woman

Getting mad at cis women for 'wanting' HRT in menopause over them 'needing' it shows they don't know what HRT is actually needed for in menopause. Dismissing crippling constant back pain that takes years to get a doctor to pay enough attention for a referral shows they don't understand the necessity of breast reduction. It just reads like a baseless, needless attack on women and they haven't even bothered to understand women's medical needs and how women have been historically and still are treated flippantly and dismissively by medical professionals in many cases, which is well-documented.

Sorry for your loss, thinking

I hope this thread doesn’t get deleted, too. I would like to talk about how women’s healthcare has been talked about by a number of transwomen that I’m aware of as some kind of luxury, on-demand service. Or why transwomens healthcare would need to be prioritised as more urgent, while feminists are being simultaneously chided for believing that women and transwomen have any different needs at all...

Thanks, Sophocles.

Writing this under different name because of embarrassing personal medical information later on in this post.

Just reading this about experience of a woman going through menopause in her early 30s... www.yournewlifeplan.com/knowyourmenopause-poster-campaign

A story here about not being able to get HRT www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5832523/amp/Why-GPs-refuse-women-HRT.html

Anyone who wants to give more info on this subject, please do. I know there were lots of posts in the deleted thread/s. A shame the whole thread was deleted and not just the posts that were apparently against the rules.

Also, "Women like me die waiting for the exact same medicines that bald men get from the GP to treat hair loss."

Men's hair loss medications are NOT available on the NHS, you have to get a private prescription:

"Finasteride/Propecia
Finasteride is the active ingredient of the well-known hair loss treatment Propecia. It is now also available in a cheaper generic form, under the name Finasteride. Both Propecia and Finasteride are prescription medicines, but are not available on the NHS for the treatment of hair loss*."

lloydspharmacy.com/blogs/hair-care/best-treatment-for-hair-loss

If they're talking about spironolactone, which is a drug used off-label as an anti-androgen that trans women use to transition, that is NOT prescribed for men for hair loss/balding. And is not easy to get as a woman, from what I hear in groups i'm in, and my experience. I have PCOS and autoimmune thyroiditis (hyperthyroid). A GP wouldn't prescribe this for issues I had, and my repeated concerns about several issues over several years since I was around 17 I think (now 32), about issues that seriously affected my mental health and made me suicidal, were ignored or fobbed off, not taken seriously. Eventually I was referred to see an endocrinologist when I was diagnosed with thyroid issues a couple of years ago, and also talked to him about my PCOS, he was against spironolactone and didn't think it'd help much anyway, eventually after months of repeated mentioning hair loss my endocrinologist told me to tell GP he wanted me referred to dermatologist, I was referred to dermatologist for hairloss, (already treated facial hirsutism by electrolysis over several years, paid for by my mum, not NHS) saw him after months of waiting (no complaints from me, there are more important issues dermatologist have to deal with as my family well knows (dad had malignant melanoma)), anyway, he suggested spironolactone as an option, but wasn't giving it to me just yet, I had to see my GP to discuss and go back to see dermatologist after several months, but covid came and I haven't been back to GP or dermatologist yet (or endocrinologist).

This is what spironolactone is actually for "treat heart failure, high blood pressure (hypertension), or hypokalemia (low potassium levels in the blood). Spironolactone also treats fluid retention ( edema) in people with congestive heart failure, cirrhosis of the liver, or a kidney disorder called nephrotic syndrome." It's anti-androgen uses are off-label use, doctors in the UK don't seem keen to prescribe it for this from what I've seen a lot of women in various groups/forums related to my health issues see via the internet it being freely prescribed in other countries such as the US for acne, hair loss, hirsutism, and complain that doctors here in the UK won't/are very reluctant to prescribe it for these off-label uses. Women ask how they can get it here or how to get our doctors to prescribe it. I have also read that you have to have regular blood tests for kidney function and potassium levels as it can affect those, and that they require you to be on the pill to prevent pregnancy because it can badly damage a male fetus. I have also read many posts by trans women who warn others not to take this medication because it has had bad effects for them. Others have reported bad side effects too, some are fine with it of course. Not sure I'd want to take it.

I have been using Regaine for my hairloss since last summer, don't know if it's doing anything. As I said, I had electrolysis paid for by my mum for several years, for facial hair related to pcos which made me suicidal, haven't added up the financial cost, probably a lot, but worth it. It'd be annoying though if transwomen got this for free on the NHS when women don't, like I have read. Trans women definitely do in Scotland: "Facial Hair Removal
The removal of facial hair is seen as an essential part of gender reassignment for trans women, for people identifying as trans feminine, or non-binary people. This is recognised in the Scottish Government's Gender Reassignment Protocol, which notes that it 'is an essential treatment... Removal of facial hair relates directly to confidence and safety'.

Please see the NGICNS network's Guidelines for NHS Boards on facial hair removal for people identifying as trans women, trans feminine, or non-binary." www.ngicns.scot.nhs.uk/nhsservices/adults/hair-removal/

And a quick search suggest they do in England

"As time has progressed, the availability of hair removal on the NHS has become more widespread throughout England. Transgender patients now have an extensive choice of private clinics, including Skin Medical that are more than happy to offer hair removal treatments on behalf of NHS England. The prospect of having a hair free, smooth complexion and not having to worry about the constraints caused by body or facial hair is now plausible."

www.skinmedical.co.uk/2016/07/hair-removal-nhs-transgender-patients/#:~:text=As%20time%20has%20progressed%2C%20the%20availability%20of%20hair,by%20body%20or%20facial%20hair%20is%20now%20plausible.

Another
"We specialise in NHS referrals from Tavistock & Portman GIDS, Leeds GIS, Nottingham GIC, Porterbrook GIC, Daventry GIC and North Devon GIC. "
cristianos.co.uk/treatments/laser-diode-hair-removal/

There are lots of transwomen in England talking about having it on the NHS and making videos about it m.youtube.com/watch?v=urh9TQY_TxY
In comments "lucky you hazel I'm so proud of you.. I'm going to ask my gp if I can be referred in January." "Thanks Chloe :) i'm not sure if you can get referred by your gp [assume this means has to be referred by gender clinic] but remember to say to your doctor that it is for gender dysphoria as otherwise they won't fund it."

For bio women though, I had thought I'd read some NHS areas offer women limited sessions of laser or electrolysis, not enough sessions , but appears I'm wrong, the NHS say laser or electrolysis is NOT usually available in the NHS for bio women:

"They're also not usually available on the NHS and can be expensive.
The 2 main treatments are:

electrolysis – where an electric current is used to stop your hair growing

laser hair removal"

"Hirsutism is where women have thick, dark hair on their face, neck, chest, tummy, lower back, buttocks or thighs. See a GP if it's a problem for you. It might be caused by a medical condition that can be treated.
Information:
Most women get more hair on their face and body as they get older, particularly after the menopause. But this is finer hair and it's not the same as hirsutism.

See a GP if:
you're a woman and you have thick, dark hair on your face, neck, chest, tummy, lower back, buttocks or thighs
The GP will check what's causing the hair growth.

You may have a blood test to measure your hormone levels. A change in your hormone levels is a common cause of hirsutism."

Instructs women to do these things... (Why don't they instruct transwomen to do some of these? obviously not all apply . But no, they just say it's essential to pay for their laser/electrolysis instead):

Treatments for hirsutism
Your GP may suggest:

losing weight if you're overweight – this can help control hormone levels

things you can do at home to remove or lighten the hair – such as shaving, waxing, plucking, hair removal creams or bleaching

a prescription cream to slow hair growth on your face (eflornithine cream)

taking a contraceptive pill – this can help control hormone levels

If these have not helped after 6 months, your GP may refer you to a specialist. They may recommend other medicines to control your hormone levels.

Longer-lasting hair removal methods
There are treatments that can get rid of unwanted hair for longer than the things you can do at home. But they're not usually permanent.

They're also not usually available on the NHS and can be expensive.

The 2 main treatments are:

electrolysis – where an electric current is used to stop your hair growing

laser hair removal

Make sure you research these treatments before trying them. They both have risks and the results are not the same for everyone.

Causes of hirsutism
Hirsutism is caused by an increase in hormones called androgens, your body being more sensitive to them, or both.

The most common cause is polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS).

Sometimes there's no obvious cause.

Rarely, hirsutism can be caused by:

certain medicines
using anabolic steroids
other hormonal conditions like Cushing's syndrome and acromegaly
tumours affecting your hormone levels"
www.nhs.uk/conditions/hirsutism/

Unless I missed it, unlike Scottish NHS statement for essential need to fund it for trans women, trans femme, non binary, there's no mention about how mentally distressing it is for women And how essential it is that the nhs funds laser/electrolysis to get rid of it for women, how essential it is to women's confidence And safety, and mental health.

And all it says on this page of NHS website is that it's a cosmetic procedure and how much it typically costs www.nhs.uk/conditions/cosmetic-procedures/laser-hair-removal/

So that's not very fair is it. Imagine how a girl/woman feels with facial hirsutism. How it affects our lives. Dark thick facial hair on chin/ beard area. Mine wasn't as severe as some womens', it didn't cover the whole "beard area", but it was enough that it made me suicidal. I didn't even want to write it here, I'm embarrassed. I changed my name for this post. But we don't matter as much apparently.

One GP when I mentioned electrolysis several years ago suggested I do laser instead, but didn't say NHS offered it. Anyway i went and got electrolysis (paid for by mum). Nobody had offered any solution to me on the NHS despite me and my mum bringing it up for many years and telling them how it made me feel . Basically all done and gone now. Well sorry, I went off on one there... far too long, Sorry. Probably nobody got to the end. Don't blame you. I probably made typos and mistakes too, I haven't slept.

NameChange

Thanks for writing that up.

Namechange thank you and I really appreciated your post.

@NameChange7677 thank you for sharing something personal to you.

Your story also brings up another key difference between women's and team's people's treatment- aside from what is funded and what is not, and that's that much of women's health is taboo.

Trans people are very open, announcing treatments on twitter. On the other hand, women are forced to hide their problems and have them trivialised. For example, I have had chronic urinary tract infections for years. These have never been properly investigated and have just been given patronising advice like don't use bubble bath. My untreated UTI may be the cause of ds cp because infections cause brain damage in utero- waiting MRI to find out. This makes me so mad and sad as I've been seeking treatment since my mid 20s and if taken seriously my son's disability would be fully preventable.

It makes me very sad that namechange has so internalised blame and embarrassment for her condition that she feels she needs to hide it. This is not her fault it is the fault of society telling women health problems are their fault and to suck up and deal with them.

From the teenage girl hiding her tampon on the way to the toilets to the mum giving birth embarrassed about opening her bowels. From the women declining smear tests because shame about their genitals to the menopausal woman who endure jokes about their condition- women are told problems are ours to shut up and deal with.

Is it any wonder we want privacy in spaces when our bodies are treated as gross or something to be ashamed of?

Just something as simple as a tampon dropping out of our bags causes acute embarrassment. Why? Menstruation is a reality for us for much of our lives. Yet we've been trained to hide it because it makes men uncomfortable.

And that uncomfortableness is completely socialized. How many of us started out with a boyfriend who cringed at us being on our period who ended up watching us birth a child with all the various fluids that involves? Even breastfeeding is frowned upon and causes men such embarrassment we have to seek suitable places to do it away from the gaze of men. They can get used to it, all of it, of course they can. But society demands we hide it instead.

Which makes it very hard to watch trans people announcing they are lactating or whatever it is because they aren't subject to the taboo.

"because they're choosing not to live in reality."

My first laugh of the morning!

I just want to say that I'm happy for Abigail. A lot of commenters on this thread seem to be doing what they're accusing Abigail of doing, which is positing a conflict between healthcare for trans women and healthcare for cis women. I don't think this conflict is real – it is perfectly possible to fight for better healthcare for cis women, trans women and indeed trans men and non-binary people. Healthcare shortages aren't driven by any one of these groups, but instead by chronic underfunding and privatisation by successive Tory and Labour governments.