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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender footy star sues AFL

130 replies

ChakaDakotaRegina · 17/01/2021 01:46

HM is to sue the Australian Football League. Australian Rules Football is a similar game to rugby in that the ball is held and thrown and there are high impact tackles.

It is reported below that HM was unable to play in the senior league because they did not meet the lower testosterone level requirements for the women’s teams and also that they refused the offer of their own changing room.

It looks like HM wants to play in a lower women’s league (as opposed to an LGBT or mixed league)

While I’m sorry they don’t feel they are being taken seriously, I’m not sure the safety implications are coming across and I’m concerned this is just to set the precedent to later move up the women’s leagues, regardless of the impact on other participants.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9155345/Transgender-footy-star-Hannah-Mouncey-sues-AFL.html#article-9155345

OP posts:
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MichelleofzeResistance · 17/01/2021 10:38

Hecate great post.

This illustrates, again, how when small lies are enabled as 'kindness' the push just goes further and further. Eventually the point has to come where the answer is 'no', this cannot be enabled any further. And the further it has been allowed to go, the harder it is to put down the boundary and the bigger the anger in response. Boundaries. Good relationships and good, well functioning social situations have them.

Mutual good experience is a part of a successful social situation (hence the need for boundaries.) It's also what makes for successful inclusion. When the experience of one side is satisfaction at the expense and unhappiness (and in this case danger of injury and worse) at the other, it's not mutually satisfying. Would you tell a woman to stay in any relationship where they gave everything, and got nothing but the shitty end of the stick because it was their job to make the other person happy? To ensure their needs and feelings were cared for? To constantly understand how hard it is for them and compensate them accordingly?

If you're in this kind of a relationship with someone, and it's healthy, you're either a professional being paid for it (with boundaries), or you're their mum. Non reciprocal, unequal relationships where there is no mutual respect, care, understanding, are not good ones.

There comes a point where this moves past looking like a total lack of awareness of the issues for female people in this situation, an alarming lack of empathy or basic social reciprocation skills, or merely viewing female humans as props in the lives of more important humans, (which is bad enough,). It becomes extreme to the point you start to wonder, is the desire here to see female people actively subjugate themselves, be seen enduring the humiliation and overturning of their consent in sharing a changing room in the presence of the one who has more power and influence, and present themselves for the risk of injury? Is there a seeking to meet some need by seeing women do this for them?

And how ethical is it to permit women to be forced to do this for a male person? Because there's no doubt in anyone's mind as to who is in the group that gets to demand and emote and pressure, and who is only allowed to plead their case here, if they do it very, very nicely. It's wholly sex based thinking. We might as well be honest about it.

Pretending the unpleasant bits of reality don't exist don't make them go away. Most small children have figured that one out.

teawamutu · 17/01/2021 10:48

Hannah is already up there with Mridul and Rachel McK/Veronica Ivy in contention for the GC MVP Award of 2021.

Childrenofthestones · 17/01/2021 10:51

Crikey one of those photos look like somebody having a kick around with their kids.😲

ArabellaScott · 17/01/2021 11:01

Another enthusiastic cheerleader for Hannah, here. Glad to see this is getting widespread coverage. Go, Hannah, fighting for the right to shower with women! StarGlitterballGlitterball

MedusasBrandyButter · 17/01/2021 11:22

Hannah is a ray of sunlight on trans sport. Smile

OneEpisode · 17/01/2021 11:32

Hannah is very clear that Hannah has had no surgery of any kind, takes no medication and is attracted to chicks. In the video Hannah was offended at the suggestion otherwise. Go Hannah!

dyslek · 17/01/2021 11:50

@JellySlice

It's always a useful exercise to read these articles with the Rohypnol Effect in mind. Try reading this and, in your head, replace compelled-speech pronouns with sex-accurate pronouns.

Mouncey was thrust into the spotlight in 2018 after she was blocked from playing in the Women's AFL because she had too much testosterone to qualify for the female league.
In an explosive post in 2019, Mouncey said she refused a management request to use a separate changeroom because female teammates felt uncomfortable with her presence.

Yes, HM appears in a whole new light Hmm
teawamutu · 17/01/2021 11:51

@OneEpisode

Hannah is very clear that Hannah has had no surgery of any kind, takes no medication and is attracted to chicks. In the video Hannah was offended at the suggestion otherwise. Go Hannah!
Grin
NorthernIrishFeminist · 17/01/2021 11:52

@OneEpisode

Hannah is very clear that Hannah has had no surgery of any kind, takes no medication and is attracted to chicks. In the video Hannah was offended at the suggestion otherwise. Go Hannah!
Absolutely go Hannah Grin

I’m almost tempted to campaign on their behalf. It will do that thing we’re not allowed to mention here

ArabellaScott · 17/01/2021 11:59

We could start a cheerleading group. Grin

HecatesCats · 17/01/2021 13:32

There comes a point where this moves past looking like a total lack of awareness of the issues for female people in this situation, an alarming lack of empathy or basic social reciprocation skills, or merely viewing female humans as props in the lives of more important humans, (which is bad enough,). It becomes extreme to the point you start to wonder, is the desire here to see female people actively subjugate themselves, be seen enduring the humiliation and overturning of their consent in sharing a changing room in the presence of the one who has more power and influence, and present themselves for the risk of injury? Is there a seeking to meet some need by seeing women do this for them?

Excellent questions Michelle

WhichOneOfUsIsCaving2 · 17/01/2021 13:40

What would happen if the women on a team refused to play against another team that had a player like this?

Yes, they'd be called horrible names on Twitter etc. But apart from that?

Anyone?

Defaultname · 17/01/2021 14:08

Love it that the photos' captions ensure we know who they're talking about by indicating (Left) or (Right) in the photo...

Aroundtheworldin80moves · 17/01/2021 14:22

Such a shame 'TRAs' spend their time on nonsense like this instead of creating real opportunities for Trans people to do sports. Team sports would be harder, but they could have their own cycling league, or running, or skiing... Surfing.
Swimming.

persistentwoman · 17/01/2021 14:24

Another one tempted (not really) to join team Hannah. The comments under that article exemplify how this is the issue that unites everyone in understanding how women's rights are being removed. Hannah's demands to share changing rooms and showers with unwilling women merely add to the sense of incredulity.

CaraDuneRedux · 17/01/2021 14:30

@WhichOneOfUsIsCaving2

What would happen if the women on a team refused to play against another team that had a player like this?

Yes, they'd be called horrible names on Twitter etc. But apart from that?

Anyone?

They'd be suspended from the league is my guess.

I believe women's rugby in S Wales has been haemorrhaging referees since the arrival of a transwomen who according to the BBC "folds opponents like deckchairs.". Referees carry the ultimate responsibility for player safety on the pitch and many are simply deciding player safety can't be guaranteed in the circumstances.

squeekums · 17/01/2021 14:41

as an avid AFL fan, let her mix it up with the blokes, she wont last a full quarter.
the AFL has deep pockets and big backers, this suing crap wont get far

There was NO outrage here when she was denied playing senior AFLW, most AFL fans hear her name and ignore it

Biscuitsanddoombar · 17/01/2021 14:42

@WhichOneOfUsIsCaving2

What would happen if the women on a team refused to play against another team that had a player like this?

Yes, they'd be called horrible names on Twitter etc. But apart from that?

Anyone?

Given that pretty much every UK sports body has been stone walled I suspect suspension plus immediate “re education” for the team

However sport England are starting to show signs of what I’d call “oh shit this could look bad” syndrome which is very different from their previous beeeee kiinnddd stance

www.sportengland.org/corporate-information/equality-and-diversity/transgender-inclusion-grassroots-sport-and-physical

Hadalifeonce · 17/01/2021 14:54

I showed this article to DH, his reaction was that the people in authority should just say WTF! Of course this person shouldn't be playing with/against women. If more men were shown this kind of ridiculous stuff, perhaps there would be a sea of change. If it wasn't so terrifying it would be comical.

Greencoatblue · 17/01/2021 14:55

Two categories of sport, one called open, any sex can participate, and the other female, in which only female sex people can compete. Anyone not wishing to have their sex determined can only play in the open category. Problem solved Grin

OldFolksTalkinBoutBackinMyDay2 · 17/01/2021 14:56

@Greencoatblue

Two categories of sport, one called open, any sex can participate, and the other female, in which only female sex people can compete. Anyone not wishing to have their sex determined can only play in the open category. Problem solved Grin

That'd get my vote!

StandWithYou · 17/01/2021 14:58

Hannah - the gift that keeps on giving. Go Hannah!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/01/2021 15:23

@Triphazards

"The 31-year-old from Canberra (left)."

Good comedy from the Mail!

I noticed that as well. I think the photographs illustrating the piece have been chosen well. The final two paragraphs of the piece also provide a useful insight.

I very much hope that this case receives a lot of media attention in both Australia and further afield.

MoleSmokes · 17/01/2021 16:12

@Greencoatblue

Two categories of sport, one called open, any sex can participate, and the other female, in which only female sex people can compete. Anyone not wishing to have their sex determined can only play in the open category. Problem solved Grin
I agree - with one caveat.

Women who take testosterone would normally fall foul of anti-doping rules. However, the same rules do not apply if a female is taking or has been taking testosterone as part of gender transition.

Attention needs to be given to ensuring that trans men are not able to compete in women’s sports when other women would be excluded due to the effects of the same level of testosterone doping.

rainywindows · 17/01/2021 16:39

Someone mentioned optics

images.app.goo.gl/qokb5VNADLdtEX1t6