Silence of the Lambs etc - are TRAs fighting historic battles?

[UndyingDeathdefying]

I watched this the other night and was pretty shocked by the transphobia......

It made me think about all the TRA posts justifying behaviour by saying “X happens to trans people, therefore they are uniquely vulnerable, therefore those asking questions are wrong”

Looking at old films (Crocodile Dundee was another) it’s clear that society used to have carte Blanche to mock and humiliate transsexuals and to infer criminality.

There is often talk here of the TRAs being led by older men. Well, a man of 50 would have watched both the films I mention above as a teenager. It must have felt degrading and humiliating.

It might explain the sense of “mission” and the clear feeling that the ends justify the means. Just a thought.

Being a woman seems shameful to men.

We can be proud to wear trousers and be engineers because that's levelling up. Not the same for gnc men.

Gosh.

Just read the Feministing article

A lot of intellect channelled in a certain direction. At some point women became the enemy for this writer.

Quite right stripped, femininity in men is hugely uncomfortable for other men. I saw it play out when I was at school in particularly vicious ways. The more feminine boys were bullied. Anger with women is also about displaced aggression.

To me the most bonkers thing about that article is the author's obsession with medical transition. It's like the author thinks it is possible to actually change sex. Being refused the magic "transition" "healthcare" seems mean to the author. Not what you'd call a strong grip on reality of "transition" there.

I don’t understand the terminology but it is a powerful argument for treating transsexual people with respect

Yes, everyone should be treated with respect ,but I read it primarily as a powerful argument for keeping transwomen out of women's spaces! Although I'm sure the author probably didn't intend it that way.

It's worth noting that Lawrence is arguing that the shame is the cause of, and prior to, the autogynephilic/narcissistic identity. So in Lawrence's concept, the shame is not caused by the social stigma of being trans. It's more like... men carrying a deep shame are drawn to this stigmatised identity.

(There is an interesting implication there.. if that is the dynamic, then what if the identity isn't stigmatised any more? Would a pathological attachment to shame cause people like that to keep pushing boundaries until eventually they get the social pushback they are craving? I think you can see something like that happening in the kink community- many kinks are all about shame at their root, and as kinkiness is destigmatised, social boundaries are being increasingly pushed.)

Re the terminology: discussions of autogynephilia tend to get deleted on here but it's worth looking up the definition.

(There is an interesting implication there.. if that is the dynamic, then
the answer then is to remove stigma subject to retaining safeguarding and openly discuss conflicts of rights.

"what if the identity isn't stigmatised any more? Would a pathological attachment to shame cause people like that to keep pushing boundaries until eventually they get the social pushback they are craving? I think you can see something like that happening in the kink community- many kinks are all about shame at their root, and as kinkiness is destigmatised, social boundaries are being increasingly pushed.)"

sorry ignore cut and paste fail first line there.

theoretically, all we need to do is remove the stigma.
sounds like the root stigma is not the stigma of being trans but the stigma of being female.

but the author of the "Silence" article identifies the stigma of being trans (in "Silence" and elsewhere) but goes on to identify women as the problem. Which is a weird knight's move of a conclusion.

This feels like how can we be kinder to abusive men so they don't feel the need to abuse.

In my limited experience the only thing that stops abusers abusing is a show of force. Bullies are cowards who use any sign of weakness to bully but back off sharpish when faced with a big strong opponent.

In the UK it looks like the law will be the big strong opponent, which I find immensely pleasing. That's the kind of society I want to live in.

When all the opportunistic bullies have run off from this cause to another then we'll be back to a few people with dysphoria who can be helped in meaningful ways without destroying anyone else.

The author wants to be the most oppressed, hates women, thinks sex transition is genuinely possible. The author writes a long drivel on this topic. You are overthinking it.

This feels like how can we be kinder to abusive men so they don't feel the need to abuse.

Absolutely. If a subset of people are upset because they think Silence is upsetting, and they're angry at women about it, they're misogynists.

Again, women are shamed every day all day and we don’t go around raping and killing.

So what if trans folk are shamed - it’s not the thing that makes them violent in any way shape of form- if it was all women would be. It’s the entitlement that differentiates us, that’s way way more likely to be the factor in raging against women, the same way it is for other males. The idea we can mitigate the violence they show us by being more respectful is a joke. The vast majority of the time it’s already women who are willing to show respect and support to other groups, it’s men who don’t.

"This feels like how can we be kinder to abusive men so they don't feel the need to abuse."
I do take your point.

I think the valid question is "how can we avoid shaming teenagers, so that they can grow up with a sense of solidity and therefore behave well".

But I accept that it is a slippery slope back to "how can we be kinder to abusive men....".
Bearing in mind that most of us spent our formative years at the bottom of that slope. You can slither back down when you least expect it.

Femininity used to be a derogatory thing in men. In some ways in some spheres it still is no doubt, but there are other ways it never has. Men in traditionally female roles have long since had the glass elevator effect benefit them, that’s not a new phenomena at all. And there’s lots of pop culture where men ‘rebelling’ and wearing make up and skirts was super cool & sexy & fawned over. Back in Lou Reeds era it was met with hugely derogatory attitudes, but just a short time after David Bowie, boy George, Kurt Cobain, Nicky Wire, Brian Molko, David Beckam etc - all hailed as cool and celebrated for femininity. Of course they can easily discard that femininity whenever they choose, and therefore side step any derogatory comments if they did get them, and then step back into it to be celebrated whenever they want again.