Silence of the Lambs etc - are TRAs fighting historic battles?

[UndyingDeathdefying]

I watched this the other night and was pretty shocked by the transphobia......

It made me think about all the TRA posts justifying behaviour by saying “X happens to trans people, therefore they are uniquely vulnerable, therefore those asking questions are wrong”

Looking at old films (Crocodile Dundee was another) it’s clear that society used to have carte Blanche to mock and humiliate transsexuals and to infer criminality.

There is often talk here of the TRAs being led by older men. Well, a man of 50 would have watched both the films I mention above as a teenager. It must have felt degrading and humiliating.

It might explain the sense of “mission” and the clear feeling that the ends justify the means. Just a thought.

@UndyingDeathdefying

"I understand perfectly well that the character in the film was based on several real life serial killers and heavily influenced by the real world example of Ed Gein."

I didn't know that. So neither.

Yet you jumped straight to pretty shocked by the transphobia..... and from there deduced that TRA's are justified in their behaviour against women because they were so degraded and humiliated by the portrayal of Jame Gumb in this film.

Labelling things as transphobic or full of transphobia without any factual basis or indeed knowledge is a lazy knee-jerk reaction.

@WarOnWomen

I'm not asking anything of you, I was just wondering about how TRAs come to be as they after seeing this film from my early teens which stimulated some half-thoughts.

You forgot to mention Dressed to Kill, OP.

You are looking at historical documents with a 2021 perspective. The attitudes were of it's time and I doubt many of the teenage boys watching the films in the 80s knew they were going be trans in their mid 50s.

Let's look at how women are portrayed on film. The tropes that keep on giving: the hooker with the heart of gold, the dirty old woman, the exotic Asian/Latina etc, the boring wife/girlfriend, the cold ice queen. The list is endless.

I'm not even going to go into racial tropes and film.

The point is, there are plenty of depictions of various peoples which are less than flattering and many which downright demeaning on film.

On a slight tangent but I watched Horrible Bosses - a (very silly) film from only as far back as 2011 - the other day and was astonished at the sexism. The only women who got to speak at all were portrayed as desperate to have sex with any man or as angels who were 100% nice. Weird.

Your points are v interesting. You are way ahead of me. But it would be fascinating if it could be researched (but how can that be done people won't give truthful accounts because that would be "letting the side down"?)

Thank you. I have learned a lot on this board.

The problem with doing solid psychological or sexological research on this issue is that social scientists have been shut down by activists. See, for example, Michael Bailey (book: The Man Who Would be Queen) and also Blanchard and Ken Zucker. Anne Lawrence is another researcher (book: Men Trapped in Men's Bodies).

Actually, come to think of it, there is quite a bit of research (but mostly on male transsexuals, not very much on female transsexuals, now why might this be??).

More generally, any social research has to deal with the issue of people not saying the truth. Social scientists have ways of controlling for that. The trouble, though, is that in this particular field, what the "truth" is has become unsayable! This is what worries me most about this, it's really pulling apart a basic scientific consensus.

"More generally, any social research has to deal with the issue of people not saying the truth. Social scientists have ways of controlling for that."

it must be very hard to do that but that's interesting.

"The trouble, though, is that in this particular field, what the "truth" is has become unsayable!""

Yes. Today's taboos aren't usually tomorrow's though so I guess there's potential instudying how the stories change over time.

Yes - I have heard a family member correct a reference to one part of the Middle East

sorry -forget the middle east thing - meant to delete.

Maybe you are suggesting that what we are seeing in terms of male middle-aged transitioners (people who would have been in their teens/twenties in the 1990s and are in their 40s/50s today) is a generational thing, related to something about the youth culture of that time.

First of all, youth culture may not have anything to do with men identifying as women when in their 50s. You're making a link that might not even be there. Second, even if there was a link, it cannot be robustly studied because, again, people have their perceptions coloured by experience and having lived through the last few years. Thirdly, more research on middle aged men, just what we need.

Finally, does it really matter? Really matter, in the grand scheme of where we are at now? I may have all the understanding in the world and empathy going, but it won't deflect and shouldn't deflect me and others from the main issue of women's rights.

I can't help feeling that, OP, that you're trying really hard to understand something which is too nebulous to grasp. There is no one simple reason such as youth culture. It's a never ending rabbit hole.

"I can't help feeling that, OP, that you're trying really hard to understand something which is too nebulous to grasp"
well this is mumsnet :)
but yes, there's a time to think/wonder and there's a time to triage and say "I've thought enough I'm acting on X".

Silence of the lambs is based on an actual male serial killer who killed women to make his woman suit- not a transwomen.

Norman Bates had Dissociative Identity Disorder (you don’t see the mh community or survivors of csa having a violent hissy fit about that misrepresentation) - so not a transwoman.

Frankenfurter is seen as a positive, flamboyant and likeable- what would have been termed transvestite- it’s a stereotypical portrayal of a transvesite, but then transvestism is based on misogynistic stereotypes of women so don’t think that can be argued as a negative with a straight face (or garter belt).

Not movies but what about Lou Reeds achingly beautiful portrayal of many of the factories transsexuals and transvestites? Or his love song Coney Island baby to the transwoman he loved through dying from aids? Not merely traumatic violent limiting portrayals that would of course insight actual violence and forced removal of women’s rights to get us big meanies back (because it’s women who write, produce, direct and profit from all movies right? Or did we just not teach the men who do to be kind enough to the trans folk while we quietly accept our own rape & abuse from said men? Damn us again, double big meanies).

Hope you stretched before that reach op.

Trans people have not been well served by movies and tv shows. (Ace Ventura, anyone?)

Neither have women.

Neither have gay or bi people.

Neither have black people. Or people from the Middle East.

Neither have disabled people.

None of this has anything to do with why a bunch of misogynistic arseholes continue to shit their misogyny all over social media.

Ed Gein- wether you see him as someone under today’s trans umbrella or not- was a ghoul who’s crimes were so shocking and unbelievable they still have a grim fascination for many today, so it’s understandable they would inspire so many films (4 of which are excellent).

“Hope you stretched before that reach op.”
I don’t know what that means.

Delirium, it probably has something to do with it but having reflected on the responses I can see it’s just a small part of the picture.

‘If you watch old films like Crocodile Dundee, they are saturated with sexism and misogyny. I’ve not noticed 50 year old women threatening men with “choke on my pussy” threats. ‘

I take your point. But attitudes to trans people have changed more since the 80s than attitudes to women. So the outdatedness stands out much more

Can you explain why you thought Silence of the Lambs was transphobic? You must have seen transphobia or you wouldnt have started the thread. So what did you see?

It was a sort of “bloody hell did we really just have that sort of theme as unremarked on background ?” type feeling.
Followed by “ crikey I’m glad I’m not watching this with A”
Followed by “I wonder what A must have made of this as a teenager?”

That’s all really. A bit like reading Uncle Toms Cabin or watching Gone with the Wind I suppose

None of this has anything to do with why a bunch of misogynistic arseholes continue to shit their misogyny all over social media.

That's right.

It would be odd if the two were entirely unconnected. But as discussed upthread you can’t really gather the data. So the trail runs dry.

@UndyingDeathdefying

It would be odd if the two were entirely unconnected. But as discussed upthread you can’t really gather the data. So the trail runs dry.

You are still convinced there's a direct link? Even though your premise on SofTL is false?

On a slightly different note, I've been watching Cobra Kai. You can really see the shift in cultural attitudes from 1980s Karate Kid and the teen world today.

Truthfully I wouldn’t say convinced or unconvinced. Rather boringly I’ve probably run out of thought!
So tell me about Konrad Kai it will be interesting :0

Maybe a more interesting thing is what films seem Less dated than you would expect eg
All About Eve
African Queen
Imitation of Life

.....”silence” did seem v dated to me in lots of ways but is probably because many subsequent things have re-used bits of it that were innovative at the time. I recognised where a lot of “Homeland” had come from, for instance.

I watched this the other night and was pretty shocked by the transphobia......

Trans people have been mocked throughout history. The ‘ugly sisters’ can only be played by men, because only men in drag are considered truly ugly enough.

You don’t even have to look at films. Up until fairly recently journalists could write quite openly vile things about transsexuals in mainstream newspapers including Julie Birchill’s ‘bedwetters in bad wigs’
www.imediaethics.org/calling-transsexuals-bed-wetters-in-bad-wigs-ok-with-pcc-rules-not-discrimination-or-harassment/

Suzanne Moore’s ‘Brazilian transsexual’ comment seems positively mild in comparison (bless her).

And Julie Bindel (who I admire hugely) writes: There can be no doubt that transsexual people are often targets for abuse and cruelty. Good liberals should find this appalling, and add our voices to those within the transgender rights movement, calling for an end to discrimination towards this community.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/aug/01/mytransmission

So there may be something in what you say. Nothing excuses misogyny though. But Silence of the Lambs is an odd one to focus on. Lector clarifies that the killer is not transsexual, but someone trying to escape childhood abuse and will have been rejected by every sex change centre in the country. The whole point is he does not have genuine gender dysphoria.

Nevertheless you do see the odd ‘it puts the lotion in the basket’ comment on here from time to time. Anyway, yes interesting discussion.

@ThatIsNotMyUsername

What about films where the murderers are just massacring women? Should be airbrush these too because not all men are mass murderers? Just watch virtually any film from the 70s and the women are either eye candy, love interest or victims.

I think the OP is trying very hard.

This exactly. Also I’d like to see them try cancelling Silence of the Lambs. They should also go after Rocky Horror Picture show for implying transvestites come from Transylvania.

Trans people have been mocked throughout history. The ‘ugly sisters’ can only be played by men, because only men in drag are considered truly ugly enough.

Um, the ugly sisters are often played by women and their purpose is to highlight their unwomanly qualities in direct contrast with the perfect womanhood of Cinderella. In the original French tale they were not ugly, they were 'proud' because this was a highly undesirable characteristic for women to possess, in comparison with their humble sister who accepts her servitude. It's interesting that over time the less desirable quality to have has morphed into ugliness, since society prizes beauty above all else. Cinderella is the ultimate objectified female. They also exist to divide women - through their jealousy of her beauty and her ability to bag the prince. It's a tired & misogynistic cliche. They have been played by women on numerous occasions on TV and in film, the reason that they are played by men in pantomime is that pantomime dames are and have always been grotesque caricatures of middle age women. Their purpose is to ridicule older women and their existence stems from a time when women weren't allowed on the stage so girls and women were played by men and boys. For centuries women were not allowed to make a living from acting. Plus the more modern twist of having women play the lead boy came about because of the thrill of seeing women's legs on stage. The history of stage drag is dripping in misogyny.

Thank you for your insightful post. Hecates. 👏🏻

You wonder if TRAs are fighting the battles of the past because of what you saw in old films and think It might explain the sense of “mission” and the clear feeling that the ends justify the means. Just a thought

I agree it is helpful to understand why TRAs are behaving like they are. I do not think your theory is correct though. I do not think think this is a major factor.

In films cross dressing men and women were at worst part of a joke. Those demeaning jokes were no worse than the ones women got in Carry On films and Bond films. Gay men got the piss taken out of them too, lots of limp wristed camp comedy sidekicks. Negative racial stereotyped characters abounded wildly popular entertainment: Bonanza, Gone with the Wind.

So, no, I don't think historic depictions of gender non-conforming people particularly cross dressers and transsexuals (as described back then) is a major driving force behind the anger today that results in the stomping of women and women's rights.

To me the sense of mission and ends justifying the means are like you get with extreme religious people. The grievance seems to be with people refusing to hold the faith, or failure to follow the faith in the right way. If you want to understand where TRAs are coming from I suggest you look at religious fervour instead.