Silence of the Lambs etc - are TRAs fighting historic battles?

[UndyingDeathdefying]

I watched this the other night and was pretty shocked by the transphobia......

It made me think about all the TRA posts justifying behaviour by saying “X happens to trans people, therefore they are uniquely vulnerable, therefore those asking questions are wrong”

Looking at old films (Crocodile Dundee was another) it’s clear that society used to have carte Blanche to mock and humiliate transsexuals and to infer criminality.

There is often talk here of the TRAs being led by older men. Well, a man of 50 would have watched both the films I mention above as a teenager. It must have felt degrading and humiliating.

It might explain the sense of “mission” and the clear feeling that the ends justify the means. Just a thought.

I just think people reach a point for a reason and I'm interested in that.

I'd be looking more closely at the influence of patriarchy and misogyny in the context of siloed online communities, some of which revolve around sexist computer anime and fictionalised violence and which perpetuate certain views and memes. I think a teenager telling a woman to die in a greasefire because she believes biological sex is real is unlikely to be doing that because of silence of the lambs.

Just replying to hedders' thoughtful post below, I guess I wonder more generally whether the shaming and mockery from my childhood/teenage years and the efforts to shrug that off has led people to bad consequences.

"I'm not sure this take is helpful, OP, as the causal link you are suggesting just isn't working very well. (Silence of the Lambs being about a serial killer and not transsexualism, as it would have been referred to then.)

I agree with you that it is always important to put yourself in someone else's shoes, trying to understand her or him, even if you profoundly disagree. Social phenomena have complex causes, though, and I struggle to see how a number of films from the 1980s and 90s can explain the actions of male middle-aged transitioners today. Other factors (revolution in the ways in which people access pornography, the rise of the LGBT movement, much more representation of women in politics and workplaces etc.) seem more important, and I think that was the point of other posters, too.

The Silence of the Lambs is a genuinely haunting movie, a well-executed psychological thriller, a masterpiece even, with stellar performances. I'd hate to see it reduced to one issue that has only recently become mainstream and highly politicised."

"I'd be looking more closely at the influence of patriarchy and misogyny in the context of siloed online communities, some of which revolve around sexist computer anime and fictionalised violence and which perpetuate certain views and memes."

thank you - if you are able to point to a link that would be appreciated.

no, I don't. I just think people reach a point for a reason and I'm interested in that.

Reach a point that they feel justified to launch an all out war on women and their rights, safety, privacy and dignity to target women for abuse and threats when women are not responsible for them reaching that point? Strange how they don't target the ones who produced the films and books that made them, according to you, feel so terribly degraded and humiliated, funny how they kick down and wreak punishment on a class already oppressed.

@UndyingDeathdefying

RedDogs, if you have read such an argument, it was not put foward by me.

It sounds like exactly what you are saying.

"Strange how they don't target the ones who produced the films and books that made them, according to you, feel so terribly degraded and humiliated, funny how they kick down and wreak punishment on a class already oppressed."

I don't dispute what you say. I think that most bullies have been bullied and so yes they then tend to bully themselves and obviously look for someone vulnerable.

I don't think we are inconsistent with each other.

I'm not asking anything of you, I was just wondering about how TRAs come to be as they after seeing this film from my early teens which stimulated some half-thoughts.

You forgot to mention Dressed to Kill, OP.

You are looking at historical documents with a 2021 perspective. The attitudes were of it's time and I doubt many of the teenage boys watching the films in the 80s knew they were going be trans in their mid 50s.

Let's look at how women are portrayed on film. The tropes that keep on giving: the hooker with the heart of gold, the dirty old woman, the exotic Asian/Latina etc, the boring wife/girlfriend, the cold ice queen. The list is endless.

I'm not even going to go into racial tropes and film.

The point is, there are plenty of depictions of various peoples which are less than flattering and many which downright demeaning on film.

" RedDogs, if you have read such an argument, it was not put foward by me.

It sounds like exactly what you are saying."

Well then you've misunderstood me or I've been unclear or both. It happens.

Just to say I will follow up on the point about the closed social media communities.
My lunch break is finished so I have to return to work.

"The point is, there are plenty of depictions of various peoples which are less than flattering and many which downright demeaning on film."

You're saying that many groups experience such negative treatment but don't turn on women? so there must be other things at play?

yes- I follow. thanks.

Our inconsistency is you sound like you are looking for ways to justify and excuse their behaviour, you want to be understanding, they must have felt degraded and humiliated, they are hurt by their portrayal, etc., etc. To me that sounds uncomfortably close to victim blaming and is the same sort of tripe excuses trotted out regularly by abusers.

@UndyingDeathdefying

"I'd be looking more closely at the influence of patriarchy and misogyny in the context of siloed online communities, some of which revolve around sexist computer anime and fictionalised violence and which perpetuate certain views and memes."

thank you - if you are able to point to a link that would be appreciated.

There are numerous subreddits which propagate misogyny, if you want to do some research, but I'm not linking here. You'll be surprised to learn that T*rf is a slur used against women on many such forums. You don't actually need to get to deep into Reddit, just pop it into the search function on Twitter and you'll find any number of anime avatars happily casting misogynistic slurs like that around.

"I doubt many of the teenage boys watching the films in the 80s knew they were going be trans in their mid 50s. "

.... ah yes there is that too.... my premise relies on the idea that you know you are trans as a teenager....hmmm.
thanks for your replies and I will check in after work.

ok fair enough Hecate. Not sure how far down those rabbit holes I want to go so may have to take your word for it.

It always goes badly when I post here after a recent name-change ... should have thought of that.

OP - if that is the case, may I ask you why you have changed your name?

You're saying that many groups experience such negative treatment but don't turn on women? so there must be other things at play?

I would have thought that was blindingly obvious and am surprised you've only just reached that conclusion.

I never said I was clever, Red.

Caving this is just bona fides stuff - already dealt with.

I think the general tenor on this board is to understand a little less and condemn a little more, as John Major once said.

I understand perfectly well that the character in the film was based on several real life serial killers and heavily influenced by the real world example of Ed Gein. What more do I need to understand? Should we deny Ed Gein and his skull bowls, shoe box of female vulva and female skin masks etc, existed OR are you saying nobody should make a character around them. Jame Gumb wasn't a transexual in the film so it wasn't mocking transexuals - it is clearly stated he was refused (reasons may be obvious from the film). You can't even argue people like this don't exist as alongside Ed Gein there are numerous other examples of cross dressing being used by or in murders. As we know under self ID and the Stonewall umbrella Jame Gumb would be considered trans now whether or not he is based on Ed Gein. It wasn't transphobia to base a killer on real life serial killers.

Why might women discuss things like this? Well... Are you suggesting that there aren't people online making very creepy and violent comments towards and about women under the guise of activism or just that we should ignore them too. Should we infact ignore anything from reality which makes you (or others uncomfortable) even if they do have a significant bearing on women's rights and safety?

My mistake, the tone of your posts seemed you were or at least thought you were being clever.

thanks Red.

"I understand perfectly well that the character in the film was based on several real life serial killers and heavily influenced by the real world example of Ed Gein."

I didn't know that. So neither.

I'm all for thinking aloud, asking questions, and testing opinions on an anonymous messaging boards. Seriously, if all my ideas were brilliant all the time, I could print them and charge money for them right away!

Back on topic, I do think OP is on to something here: "the shaming and mockery from my childhood/teenage years and the efforts to shrug that off has led people to bad consequences." Shame does seem to play a role in the development of identity and sexual disorders (controversial point, I know, but my hunch is that we are ultimately dealing with a disorder). Maybe you are suggesting that what we are seeing in terms of male middle-aged transitioners (people who would have been in their teens/twenties in the 1990s and are in their 40s/50s today) is a generational thing, related to something about the youth culture of that time.

If that were true, though, we'd need a fairly accurate understanding of the age range of the 'trans community' (again, the exact composition of which would have to be defined). There seem to be plenty of younger people, in their 20s and 30s, some even younger, who identify as 'trans', and who can be rabidly misogynistic, so I'm not sure a generational analysis works. Would be interesting to have that data, though.

As for whether a trans identity can be just an excuse for unbridled misogyny, I'm not saying that never happens (it very obviously does) but I also think that many trans-identified people are actually very sincere, and genuinely believe that they are somehow the opposite sex. That again is different from believing that you have gender dysphoria and that your life will only be worth living if you transition.

"I'm all for thinking aloud, asking questions, and testing opinions on an anonymous messaging boards."

Thanks. I'm not saying it's the way to be, but for some of us it's how we think/learn.

Obviously that creates a challenge on here where there is off-board context that leads to wariness/scrutiny. I just accept that nowadays.

Your points are v interesting. You are way ahead of me. But it would be fascinating if it could be researched (but how can that be done people won't give truthful accounts because that would be "letting the side down"?)

@hedders

I'm all for thinking aloud, asking questions, and testing opinions on an anonymous messaging boards. Seriously, if all my ideas were brilliant all the time, I could print them and charge money for them right away!

Back on topic, I do think OP is on to something here: "the shaming and mockery from my childhood/teenage years and the efforts to shrug that off has led people to bad consequences." Shame does seem to play a role in the development of identity and sexual disorders (controversial point, I know, but my hunch is that we are ultimately dealing with a disorder). Maybe you are suggesting that what we are seeing in terms of male middle-aged transitioners (people who would have been in their teens/twenties in the 1990s and are in their 40s/50s today) is a generational thing, related to something about the youth culture of that time.

If that were true, though, we'd need a fairly accurate understanding of the age range of the 'trans community' (again, the exact composition of which would have to be defined). There seem to be plenty of younger people, in their 20s and 30s, some even younger, who identify as 'trans', and who can be rabidly misogynistic, so I'm not sure a generational analysis works. Would be interesting to have that data, though.

As for whether a trans identity can be just an excuse for unbridled misogyny, I'm not saying that never happens (it very obviously does) but I also think that many trans-identified people are actually very sincere, and genuinely believe that they are somehow the opposite sex. That again is different from believing that you have gender dysphoria and that your life will only be worth living if you transition.

As for whether a trans identity can be just an excuse for unbridled misogyny, I'm not saying that never happens (it very obviously does) but I also think that many trans-identified people are actually very sincere, and genuinely believe that they are somehow the opposite sex. That again is different from believing that you have gender dysphoria and that your life will only be worth living if you transition.

It would be interesting to look into the consequences of shame and mockery but I'm not sure it could be done effectively. Arguably many of us have experiences like that which have shaped us in some way I can point to a couple of horrible incidents in my own formative years - should lead to bad consequences though or to trans ideology as seen through the eyes of middle class former men? I'm not convinced - but maybe I have the wrong end of the stick, happy to be told so?

I absolutely agree with this but the fact that misogyny and violence creeps in whether from people who are truly trans or those using the ideology as a vehicle still needs to be addressed and as I saw one trans person I follow today say (paraphrasing) if that is the case we should see the trans community condemning it but that isn't what we tend to see, unfortunately.

@UndyingDeathdefying

"I'm all for thinking aloud, asking questions, and testing opinions on an anonymous messaging boards."

Thanks. I'm not saying it's the way to be, but for some of us it's how we think/learn.

Obviously that creates a challenge on here where there is off-board context that leads to wariness/scrutiny. I just accept that nowadays.

Your points are v interesting. You are way ahead of me. But it would be fascinating if it could be researched (but how can that be done people won't give truthful accounts because that would be "letting the side down"?)

Your points are v interesting. You are way ahead of me. But it would be fascinating if it could be researched (but how can that be done people won't give truthful accounts because that would be "letting the side down"?)

This is why I think it couldn't really be studied with any effectiveness. l