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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women's Baths in Sydney coping flak for confirming it's women onlu

76 replies

DrJump · 11/01/2021 10:39

m.facebook.com/McIversLadiesBaths/?ref=m_notif&notif_t=group_comment_follow

They have re confirmed they are single sexed but it's pretty awful rubbish bring spouted.on the post. I'm sure they could use some love.

OP posts:
trixiebelden77 · 15/01/2021 02:23

I wouldn’t see the comments on news.com as indicative of Australia as a whole. It’s not quite the daily Mail but probably our closest comparison.

A pile of shit run by Murdoch.

ChocolateCrackles · 15/01/2021 03:51

I desperately hope that a mob of adult human females flock to the pool this weekend. If I were in NSW that is exactly what I would be doing.

asIlayfrying · 15/01/2021 11:43

Women's Agenda and the writer Jessie Tu are brave to let this debate play out on their FB page and there are some patient and articulate comments from women explaining what is being lost, alongside the usual predictable propaganda, veiled threats and callous nonsense from the TWAW brigade.

One woman actually apologised and seemed to actually realise how insensitive she was being when she brushed over a woman's comments about being raped in favour of 'imagining how much harder it must be for transwomen.'

My guess is that a lot of people in Oz are peaking right now. Not a moment too soon.

MichelleofzeResistance · 15/01/2021 14:39

Very well phrased petition. Makes so clear, the only thing this is about is removing any shred, no matter how tiny, of provision for female humans. Everything must belong to the penis. Better that some females have nothing at all than expect people with penises to cope with the idea that that someone, somewhere is saying no to them.

35 other pools, ALL the other pools, there and bigger and better. But no, this one has to be owned too. No generosity of spirit. No kindness. No tolerance. No compromise. Just a burning desire to put female people in their place.

If you want to see an activist's head explode, ask them: You say TWAW just like disabled women are women and BAME women are women?

Ok.

Should TW be able to have a group or meeting just for TW?
Should disabled women be able to have a group or meeting or session just for disabled women?
Should BAME women be able to have a group or meeting or session just for disabled women?

Watch the earnest, emphatic yes yes yes.

So should biologically female women be able to have a group or meeting or session just for biologically female women?

.................

HDDD · 15/01/2021 15:29

Dammit - I missed this when it was happening and now it seems their FB page has gone. I too have been there and yes there are a fair few ocean pools - some free, some paid for - this is (was) the only women's one that I know of. TRAs win again. Fuck's sake.

Biscuitsanddoombar · 16/01/2021 15:01

Naturally the guardian have done this

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/16/bodies-of-water-who-is-welcome-in-womens-spaces

The people welcome in women’s spaces are women

TLDR meeeeeeeeee you big transphobes meanies

asIlayfrying · 16/01/2021 16:39

And there's a trans swim in tomorrow (on a hot Sunday in Sydney) when transwomen and their allies are going to attempt to enter the pools. It's a volunteer run pool, so that's going to be very unpleasant for those volunteers and any women daring to swim there tomorrow.

At least in that article the author says she's not going to go there anymore, as she's not welcome. Like, duh.

Surely there are other pools and a whole coast. Accept you're not welcome, try to understand those reason even if you don't agree with them, take it on the chin and come up with a less stressful plan B. But of course that would be too easy.

MichelleofzeResistance · 16/01/2021 16:59

When there's only 35 accessible, available pools to choose from. But no, female people with no other options available at all must give what they have.

Selfishness in the extreme. No kindness. No compassion. No generosity. No intersectionality. No care or interest in the needs of anyone else.

How they can justify this to themselves defeats me. It's behaviour I find revolting.

MichelleofzeResistance · 16/01/2021 17:00

This swim in will be a triumphal male claiming of female property.

Bravo.

SheldonesqueIsUnwell · 16/01/2021 19:55

If you want to see an activist's head explode, ask them: You say TWAW just like disabled women are women and BAME women are women?

Ok.

Should TW be able to have a group or meeting just for TW?
Should disabled women be able to have a group or meeting or session just for disabled women?
Should BAME women be able to have a group or meeting or session just for disabled women?

Watch the earnest, emphatic yes yes yes.

So should biologically female women be able to have a group or meeting or session just for biologically female women?

Booom. And splatter. Never a truer word.

It is funny that they paint women as walking vaginas, uterus smugglers, clitoris fiddlers, ovary carriers, etc to put us in our place and yet choose to portray themselves as utter fannies all the time.

SuperSleepyBaby · 16/01/2021 23:09

Anyone who doesn’t support trans people in accessing this pool are cissexists according to the author of the guardian article.

Cissexism
“Where something is based on a discriminatory social or structural view that positions (either intentionally or otherwise) the trans experience as either not existing or as something to be pathologised. Cissexism believes that gender identity is determined at birth and is a fixed and innate identity that is based on sex characteristics (or ‘biology’) and that only binary (male or female) identities are valid and real.“

NiceGerbil · 17/01/2021 00:02

Apparently a womens pool saying that are just for women and girls- and boys under 13 and trans women post surgery - is literal violence.

There is loads of stuff for men. In London we have some gay gyms. Sessions in local community centre for older men. Dad and baby stuff. This is pre covid.

Women don't mind. At all.

The man in the UK who complained about a women only swim session and the pool cancelled it. He didn't want a male only session. That would be parity. He just didn't want women to have one.

There are loads of mixed sex things. The Hampstead ponds thing was a case in point. Mixed sex. Mens. Womens.

The womens was changed to gender id (an invisible and unprovable trait). Women were told to accept it.

When women IDd as men, the men didn't like it. And initially the police said the trans ID females weren't allowed.

The thing is that when it comes to clothes off etc. Womens spaces are important because men are bigger and stronger than us and way more likely to be pervy weirdos.

The other thing with that is about dpaces6 for gay people. Hampstead men's ponds has long been a safe spot for gay men. Women in the main are aok with that ( homophobes might not be but whatever). Women don't begrudge that space.

Why do so many men begrudge our spaces. It's about power and control isn't it.

It's pathetic.

NiceGerbil · 17/01/2021 00:11

Omg that guardian piece.

'When transphobes talk about womanhood as exclusive, they have to come up with reasons for this false distinction: this group has an attribute (genitals, physical attributes, life experiences, take your pick) which makes them women, so this other group without that attribute cannot be women. They reduce womanhood to a series of boxes to be ticked, like women are a monolith of experience, rather than accept that some women might look or be a bit different from them, and in the process miss out on the joy that comes from knowing and loving women of all different kinds.'

?????????? I mean wtf

'But even as it should, it’s important for us to continue to challenge what the category of “woman” means, and who is and has historically been allowed entry. The exclusion of trans women is the latest in a long and ongoing history of tightly defining womanhood, inseparable from racist, misogynist and colonialist ideas'

I mean just fuck off. Seriously.

No comments allowed on that piece?

I notice a shift in rhetoric recently suggesting that it's people who believe gender (sex role) is fixed at birth and no one is allowed to deviate.

This comes from the 'it's all funded by right wing USA Christians' thing.

Everyone knows that old school feminists have always fought hard against sex role/ gender stereotypes. So if they follow this route even more people are going to be scratching their heads an thinking hold on a minute.

NotYourCisterinAus · 17/01/2021 00:11

I see my link to a petition about the baths has been "withdrawn" and not at my request. What is going on? Confused

SheldonesqueIsUnwell · 17/01/2021 02:03

How curious @NotYourCisterinAus 🧐

And yet not a surprise at all 🤨

Meanwhile, in a parallel MEniverse, or MENiverse, there are people rejoicing in the power they hold, chuckling at their victories and celebrating their successful efforts at silencing those pesky little gobshites called women.

ChakaDakotaRegina · 17/01/2021 02:31

Luckily if anyone wanted to search
Ipetitions and Keep mcivers ladies baths women and children only - they will still find it.

NotBadConsidering · 17/01/2021 02:38

@NotYourCisterinAus

I see my link to a petition about the baths has been "withdrawn" and not at my request. What is going on? Confused
That is bang out of order from MNHQ and I would report my post and ask why if I were you. I know there are no links allowed to crowd funders, but don’t know about petitions and to claim you requested it be removed it terrible.
NotYourCisterinAus · 17/01/2021 03:40

NotBad - I've emailed them about it. Bad enough to withdraw it, but why say it was at my request?

SheldonesqueIsUnwell · 17/01/2021 03:50

It is disappointing notyourcister - but worse to say it was at your request.

It is a link. To a petition. And a valid one at that.

What for the future if silenced to that extent? Will women not actually be allowed to post? Confused

This isn’t about being anti - this is about trying to claim or maintain the rights for women not to have to share absolutely every single space we have with others who are intent on stripping us of every right so that they may feel included. At our exclusion.

SkeeterP · 17/01/2021 09:09

Yes that’s really shoddy Mumsnet. Is there a rule re: petitions? I’m sure I’ve seen similar links before.

highame · 17/01/2021 09:46

What is the difference between a petition and a member of the HoL asking us to write to our MP etc about fees in cases of DV. am not quibbling about doing this, it's great to do things to support women but I would like to know what the distinction is, broadly speaking they are both asking us to petition, aren't they?

ixqik · 17/01/2021 10:13

This debate is still trundling on at McIver's Ladies Bath. Now a female member of the state of NSW Parliament has waded in with her handmaidenry. As the net widens fewer people are chiming in supporting this nonsense. Funny how it is usually young white middle class women who are always throwing marginalised (brown black and white) women under the bus. Poor women whatever their colour will suffer more damage than her class will. They are protected by their nice shopping precincts, private pools and expensive club memberships. Jo Haylen MP can go and do one.

MichelleofzeResistance · 17/01/2021 10:47

Cissexism believes that gender identity is determined at birth and is a fixed and innate identity that is based on sex characteristics (or ‘biology’) and that only binary (male or female) identities are valid and real.“

Also known as gender identitarianism atheism. Freedom of belief is a thing. You can't require everyone on the planet to genuflect at your altar and conform at all times to your personal beliefs; other people have rights and beliefs too.

TheWordWomanIsTaken · 17/01/2021 14:23

There was an article in the Guardian on Friday written by a transwoman who is upset that they are not welcome at the baths.
Upset because they liked the baths as they were subjected to the 'male gaze', but completely oblivious to the fact that they are subjecting women to their male gaze.
The batshittery just goes on and on. And no comments allowed of course.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/16/bodies-of-water-who-is-welcome-in-womens-spaces

asIlayfrying · 17/01/2021 17:10

So much bother would be avoided if these people just learned to sit with their fucking feelings.